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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    To some people, the little girl walking to her death at Auswitchz was valueless. Certainly the Nazi's assessed her as such. To herself, she had life and value. To most of the rest of us, she was valuable because she is a member of our species, a part of the greater whole, and because we can see the potential she has a a thinking, feeling human being. Until someone somewhere sees something as valuable - it has no value.
    She is too pressed in by the walls of the fear and death to even consider things like value and meaning. A child victim put in those sorts of circumstances does not make their own meaning. They don't consider their own value. I find it impossible that you can't see that. And like so many before her, the farmer and his small family working his fields who are raped and wiped out when the Mongols invaded his village, the widow who dies alone and childless in Provins, the peasant who contracts the plague and dies in an alley in Istanbul, once they're gone and everyone's forgotten them, in your world they are no longer valuable. They no longer have worth. And that's a despicable position to hold. And no, the concept of innate value is NOT meaningless. Not when you come to the realization that we are imagers of the creator of the universe. We have value because God values us.


    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I never said you did. This is a misunderstanding of my posts on your part. As I said - I don't think you are getting what I am saying.
    Oh brother (we need a face palm emoticon) Dude. You broke up that entire response apparently not understanding what it was addressing. I...I don't even know what to say at this point. Again, it seems like you're skimming over these posts as fast as possible, and not even reading what people are saying to you.


    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - except for humorous exchanges - I generally eschew emoticons that are designed to belittle. I'm not claiming perfection, mind you - I generally eschew emotional outbursts in writing - but I have managed to have a few here. I might in a discussion with someone. The rolling eyes is simply meant to belittle. The same is true of and a variety of other emoticons. Many of the people here simply struggle with having a discussion that is civil and adult. You are among the better of that group. I frankly was surprised to see you using the emoticon. As for preaching - I don't consider a simple call for civility "preaching," if you do, then
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yeah...I'm sure an editorial will make your case for you.
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Right - I "hate the rich."
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Boy - you just love those references.
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    What a load of partisan tripe...
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Talk about "spin"
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I don't use these often - but...
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As for "snowflakes," every time I hear that word I cannot help but to
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Sorry...but that very idea actually earns an


    You're a hypocrite carpedm9587. Stop waving your finger at people who use emoticons. No one cares what you think about them, and they're not going to stop using them anyways. You use them as much as everyone else does. And using an eyeroll emoticon is not some great evil anyhow. No one is saying your breath stinks, or that you're a moron, or that your mother wears army boots when using an eyeroll emoticon. No one cares when you use them either (except when you're being a hypocrite about it). In real life, in a civil conversation, I would still reserve the right to roll my eyes at something I find you said that I thought was ridiculous or beneath you. Eyerolling does not necessarily end civility, and it doesn't make people childish for doing so. And who said that conversation had to be civil around here anyways? While I think that people should work at genial conversation when possible, and while I disapprove of posters changing other's names, calling one another stupid, or otherwise denigrating one another, sometimes we get heated on this forum. And that's okay. For instance, I find you pretty frustrating to dialog with for a variety of reasons. I think you're a sharp guy, but a sharp guy who is often very mixed up. And while I could stop replying to you altogether (and I have and do refrain myself from replying as often as I'd like), sometimes I hope beyond hope that I can change your mind, or help you see (what I believe is) your own folly (to my own folly no doubt). I'm not going to cuss you out, but I reserve the right to be frustrated and to express that with eyeroll emoticons.

    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    My best explanation for why so many atheists hold this bizarre "subjective meaning is an illusion" position is that they have marinated in theism and it has skewed their thinking. If someone has an alternate explanation for how they can hold such a self-refuting position - I'm all ears.
    We've offered a couple. Subjective meaning really is an illusion, and people like Rosenberg, who are twice the atheist you are, think that atheists unnecessarily hold onto subjective meaning in order to wake up in the morning, but that a real atheist can finally admit that subjective meaning is an illusion and still live a perfectly fine life as happy nihilists.
    Last edited by Adrift; 06-15-2019, 01:24 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Oh brother (we need a face palm emoticon)
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Thanks. I suppose that'll do, but I was thinking something more subtle. Like a resigned Patrick Stewart palm on forehead emoticon or something.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Thanks. I suppose that'll do, but I was thinking something more subtle. Like a resigned Patrick Stewart palm on forehead emoticon or something.
          facepalm3.gif

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            She is too pressed in by the walls of the fear and death to even consider things like value and meaning. A child victim put in those sorts of circumstances does not make their own meaning. They don't consider their own value. I find it impossible that you can't see that. And like so many before her, the farmer and his small family working his fields who are raped and wiped out when the Mongols invaded his village, the widow who dies alone and childless in Provins, the peasant who contracts the plague and dies in an alley in Istanbul, once they're gone and everyone's forgotten them, in your world they are no longer valuable. They no longer have worth. And that's a despicable position to hold. And no, the concept of innate value is NOT meaningless. Not when you come to the realization that we are imagers of the creator of the universe. We have value because God values us.
            Wow. This really appears to bother you. Adrift - you are making an argument from outrage or incredulity. It doesn't really carry a lot of weight. How the person "feels" when they are in such desperate straights does not alter the reality of the situation: until the mind ceases to be, it has freedom of choice and freedom to assign value and meaning. That some people can do that when facing the most horrific circumstances and others cannot does not change the reality of the situation.

            As for people having no value after they are dead, the best we can say is "they had value." Perhaps something they did continues to influence and impact others, and those people will assign value to that. The person who is dead is no more. They can no longer assign value to themselves or anything else. I loved my father dearly. Much of what he taught me continues to have value for me. But my father does not exist anymore except in the memories of him I (and others) hold, and the cause/effect ripple his life had on his surroundings. Like the ripple from a stone tossed in a pond, those will spread outward until the fade from notice - as will mine when I am gone.

            I cannot subscribe to your "value because god values us" notion, for obvious reasons. And frankly, even if this god existed and valued me, my own valuing does not necessarily align with this being's any more than it does with yours. I understand the position of "eternal value" because you believe (I presume) that god is eternal and the human soul is eternal (at least in the forward direction). I believe you are misguided in that belief.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Oh brother (we need a face palm emoticon) Dude. You broke up that entire response apparently not understanding what it was addressing. I...I don't even know what to say at this point. Again, it seems like you're skimming over these posts as fast as possible, and not even reading what people are saying to you.
            I read each post from start to end so I get the big picture, then I reread and begin responding as I go. That is my habit. Your responses seem to clearly misunderstand what I was saying. Apparently you think the same of my responses. I'm not sure where to go from there.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            You're a hypocrite carpedm9587. Stop waving your finger at people who use emoticons. No one cares what you think about them, and they're not going to stop using them anyways. You use them as much as everyone else does.
            No. Adrift, you just posted 8 examples of places where I have slipped up and not met my own standards. I believe I was clear that I am not perfect and have failed to meet those standards on several occasions. I have posted thousands of times in the past year. I wish I could find the exact number, but I can't. Perhaps the site doesn't track it. You will find that my rate of using these kinds of emoticons in a pejorative way is significantly below that of others. I would like it to be zero, just as I would like my "flames" to be zero. The fact is, if I am tired or stressed, my defenses are lower and I behave in ways I do not myself approve of. The best I can say is, when I'm back in form, I own it and apologize. I cannot claim to be perfect.

            Meanwhile, I reject the implication that only a perfect person can call out childish or inappropriate behavior. If that were true, no one could ever call it out.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            And using an eyeroll emoticon is not some great evil anyhow.
            I didn't say it was a "great evil," so you're building a strawman. I actually didn't say what it was, but actually questioned whether anyone here could post without using them. They are common fare for many - though I have to acknowledge that you are on the lower end of the users (along with me). There are others who dot their posts with them like candy. I find it childish and immature. When I use them I am being childish and immature. No hypocrisy involved.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            No one is saying your breath stinks, or that you're a moron, or that your mother wears army boots when using an eyeroll emoticon. No one cares when you use them either (except when you're being a hypocrite about it). In real life, in a civil conversation, I would still reserve the right to roll my eyes at something I find you said that I thought was ridiculous or beneath you. Eyerolling does not necessarily end civility, and it doesn't make people childish for doing so.
            I would consider you rude if you engage in an eyeroll in a face to face discussion as well, unless it was being used in jest.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            And who said that conversation had to be civil around here anyways?
            I tend to prefer it, especially when the discussion is a serious one. I find treating one another with a degree of respect is actually a good thing. Color me odd.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            While I think that people should work at genial conversation when possible, and while I disapprove of posters changing other's names, calling one another stupid, or otherwise denigrating one another, sometimes we get heated on this forum. And that's okay. For instance, I find you pretty frustrating to dialog with for a variety of reasons. I think you're a sharp guy, but a sharp guy who is often very mixed up. And while I could stop replying to you altogether (and I have and do refrain myself from replying as often as I'd like), sometimes I hope beyond hope that I can change your mind, or help you see (what I believe is) your own folly (to my own folly no doubt). I'm not going to cuss you out, but I reserve the right to be frustrated and to express that with eyeroll emoticons.
            And I reserve the right to question if people can engage in a more adult fashion. And with that, I think this has received more than enough attention. It has garnered more back and forth and research than the simple one-sentence post merited, IMO. I'll leave the last word on this topic to you.

            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            We've offered a couple. Subjective meaning really is an illusion, and people like Rosenberg, who are twice the atheist you are, think that atheists unnecessarily hold onto subjective meaning in order to wake up in the morning, but that a real atheist can finally admit that subjective meaning is an illusion and still live a perfectly fine life as happy nihilists.
            And I have explained that I find that explanation to be self-refuting. The person articulating it has to use language to articulate it - which is an entirely subjective construct in which meaning is assigned - and no one questions its existence. The penny is an arbitrary thing whose value is arbitrarily assigned (and changed almost daily), largely based on opinion. No one suggests the penny is unreal. So the argument "maybe it actually IS that way" is, on its face, false. The attempts to show that it is not have simply not passed muster. That the symbol represents an objectively real thing does not alter the fact that the meaning assigned to the symbol is being assigned in an arbitrary, subjective manner - and is perfectly real - albeit subjectively.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]37725[/ATTACH]
              That's perfect, but I don't see it in the list of smilies. Am I missing it somehow?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                That's perfect, but I don't see it in the list of smilies. Am I missing it somehow?
                No. It's from my private collection. You have to save it and download it when posting.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  ...And with that, I think this has received more than enough attention. It has garnered more back and forth and research than the simple one-sentence post merited, IMO. I'll leave the last word on this topic to you.
                  I was reflecting on this exchange as I returned home this evening. I found myself concluding that something was lost in the exchange. My initial post was a couple of sentences, and it triggered a great deal of back and forth about what constitutes "uncivil" discussion and whether or not it can be challenged/called out.

                  What was lost was the fact that I actually consider you, Adrift, one of the better posters on this forum. If we created a continuum with "most civil and respectful" at the top and "most uncivil and disrespectful" at the bottom, you would be one of those I would place well above the center line. If I were to assess myself, I think I'd put myself near your level, but probably (slightly?) below it. I would put MaxVel above both of us, together with Guaca. I appreciate the fact that I can almost always count on a civil exchange with you, even if we have significantly differing views and one or both of us feels passionately about it.

                  Those who lie below the center line should know themselves, but probably don't and would likely deny it if named. Some of them go so far as to defend a lack of civility as justified and even desirable. I have never understood that mindset. I doubt I ever will.

                  ETA: I realize I said "last word," but I thought this merited compromising my progress on that front to say.
                  Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-15-2019, 06:10 PM.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I was reflecting on this exchange as I returned home this evening. I found myself concluding that something was lost in the exchange. My initial post was a couple of sentences, and it triggered a great deal of back and forth about what constitutes "uncivil" discussion and whether or not it can be challenged/called out.

                    What was lost was the fact that I actually consider you, Adrift, one of the better posters on this forum. If we created a continuum with "most civil and respectful" at the top and "most uncivil and disrespectful" at the bottom, you would be one of those I would place well above the center line. If I were to assess myself, I think I'd put myself near your level, but probably (slightly?) below it. I would put MaxVel above both of us, together with Guaca. I appreciate the fact that I can almost always count on a civil exchange with you, even if we have significantly differing views and one or both of us feels passionately about it.

                    Those who lie below the center line should know themselves, but probably don't and would likely deny it if named. Some of them go so far as to defend a lack of civility as justified and even desirable. I have never understood that mindset. I doubt I ever will.

                    ETA: I realize I said "last word," but I thought this merited compromising my progress on that front to say.
                    Carp, I must say that was quite self serving...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Isn't it interesting. That was actually my original reason for joining TWeb - only about atheist beliefs. And I too am happy to report that the answer has been a resounding "yes."

                      It doesn't surprise me that you believe that. You have shown yourself to have a, shall we say, very "malleable" belief system.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Carp, I must say that was quite self serving...
                        Wow...
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          It doesn't surprise me that you believe that. You have shown yourself to have a, shall we say, very "malleable" belief system.
                          Oddly enough, I was going to respond with something similar for the first part, and opposite for second. Something like:

                          It doesn't surprise me that you believe that. You have shown yourself to have a, shall we say, very "fixed" belief system that is not (apparently) open to question on your part.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            It seems to me that if anyone here doesn't understand your arguments, it's you. Maybe that's why your posts are so long, you're attempting to harmonize in your mind through these large writing blocks your own contradictory claims, and/or convince yourself you know what you're talking about. Something to mull over.
                            Interesting. And I was assuming he simply liked to hear himself talk (in the typing words and reading them sort of way).
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Oddly enough, I was going to respond with something similar for the first part, and opposite for second. Something like:

                              It doesn't surprise me that you believe that. You have shown yourself to have a, shall we say, very "fixed" belief system that is not (apparently) open to question on your part.
                              It's curious to me that you find the idea of reasonable certainty and conviction of belief so distasteful. My beliefs are open to any question you care to ask, but if I strike you as close minded or not easily swayed then perhaps it's because you're not asking very good questions.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Wow...
                                Really? You put Max and Adrift in the top tier of posters on this site, which they are, then attach yourself to that group. I doubt that most of us who debate with you see you in that top tier. In any case that isn't something a man should claim for himself. It smacks of pride and hubris.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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