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Thread: Same Sex Marriages, Florists, and Bakers

  1. #201
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I agree, and I admit that it's possible I was drawn in by carpe's trolling. He's one of the best in that department because he's so subtle about it.
    And I think, currently, he leads Tweb in words per post!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  3. #202
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Let's put it this way:

    Objective reality is what gives meaning to words; words don't give meaning to objective reality. When your kid comes to you and says, "What does this word mean?" you don't say, "Words are subjectively defined, so it means whatever you want it to mean." (At least I'm assuming that's not what you say. I must confess, knowing you, that's not a safe assumption.) Rather, you point to something that objectively exists and say, "This is what It means." Furthermore, if something exists in reality, it exists whether or not we have a word to describe it.

    As an analogy for "the meaning of life", this implies that there is an objective reality which imbues your life with meaning in the same way that objective reality imbues words with meaning; furthermore, it implies that one's life has meaning even if one is not aware of it (Adrift's example of a child in a Nazi death camp); however, your worldview can not account for the existence of such a reality, and you end up contradicting yourself. Either your worldview is true, and therefore your life has no meaning; or your life has meaning, and therefore your worldview is false. You can't have it both ways.

    This is essentially the same rebuttal I presented before, just worded differently, so I'm not sure on what basis you claim I was unable to respond to your argument, but I suppose it makes you feel better if that's what you tell yourself. To be frank, I'm not sure I have the patience for another round of this nonsense.
    So, no. People give meaning to words, by subjectively creating an association between a selected (or created) symbol and an objective (or subjective) reality. In the case of language, take the person/people (or any sentient being) out of the equation and there is no word and no meaning to/for that word. All that remains is the objective reality. The statement "objective reality gives meaning to words" is simply false on the face of it.

    So extending that, people can give "meaning" to pretty much ANY symbol by associating it with an objective (or subjective) reality. If I make the meaning of my life, "serving the poor," then that is the meaning I have assigned to my life - just as some part of humanity has assigned to "penny" the meaning "that smallest valued coin in the U.S." To declare it "false" or "an illusion" or "a fiction" has no basis. It attempts to assign to "meaning" attributes that are not actually part of the definition of "meaning" as humanity commonly uses it (which makes your swipe at me somewhat ironic).

    Your rebuttal failed then, MM, and it fails now, whether or not you have patience for "another round" and no matter how many times you try to write this off as "nonsense." The logic here is inescapable. Why/how it is you cannot see it or acknowledge it, I have no idea.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-17-2019 at 06:51 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #203
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Yeah... You've made this point a few times, so when I see carpedm act like it hasn't been addressed in later posts after he's quoted and replied to it, it's just like...eh, either he doesn't get it, or is acting like he didn't read it. It's okay if he doesn't agree with it, but acting like you haven't addressed it all is like, oh well....An answer has been given. Other people can read it. There's not much more to say at this point.
    If you read my posts, Adrift, you will see that I have responded to this flawed explanation several times. So far, the response is being ignored, and all that happens is the same failed explanation is re-offered as if something new is being said. THAT is what I am referring to when I say "you are not responding to the argument." Perhaps it would be clearer if I said, "you are not responding to the rebuttal?"

    Point: Sentient beings assign meaning by associating some objective reality with one or more symbols (words, objects, concepts)
    Point: No part of the definition of the word "meaning" includes the concept of permanence or universality
    Point: The people who claim "subjective meaning is a fiction/illusion" ignore their own stated belief every time they speak, using symbolic language as if it actually has meaning

    And the situations are perfectly parallel:

    Symbol - "penny"
    Assigner of meaning - "people/person"
    External reality - "the smallest valued coin in the U.S.

    Symbol - "my life"
    Assigner of meaning - "me"
    External reality - "serving the poor"

    This is not a complex concept. If you want to disagree - then which of the points above do you consider to be wrong? How do the parallels fail?
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-17-2019 at 06:39 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #204
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And I think, currently, he leads Tweb in words per post!
    Adrift, note the pattern of these last two posts. They are marvelous examples of my earlier statement about people here not being able to stay with the argument at hand, instead diverting to statements about the person making the arguments. My new self-challenge is not to rise to this kind of post, and to simply stay focused on the arguments.

    May I be more successful than I am with "last word to you." I'm still hovering at about 50% on that one.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #205
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Adrift, note the pattern of these last two posts. They are marvelous examples of my earlier statement about people here not being able to stay with the argument at hand, instead diverting to statements about the person making the arguments. My new self-challenge is not to rise to this kind of post, and to simply stay focused on the arguments.

    May I be more successful than I am with "last word to you." I'm still hovering at about 50% on that one.
    And yet here you are, not staying with the argument at hand, diverting to a statement about someone else's post and not simply staying focused on the arguments.



    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  7. #206
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I have met Seer and was impressed with him as a person. And he is definitely tenacious in this forum, a fact that can be attested to by the length of our morality debate/discussion (among other things). I find he has a tendency to slip into treating people who disagree with him as in some way intrinsically disingenuous or hypocritical. I find he would rather leap to "you're a hypocrite" than "this thing you said here doesn't seem to go with this other thing you said there - how do you explain that?" In other words, if the person he is talking to is saying something he doesn't agree with or finds is not well structured, the person he's talking to must be somehow malicious. He doesn't seem to entertain the possibility that the person may have made an error, or that he may not have understood what was being said.

    This leap on the part of so many here is one that always leaves me shaking my head.
    Well Carp, I do get frustrated with you at times. You have accused me for instance of not understanding the basic laws of logic, which I do. You suggested that I used a circular argument, which I didn't. And that if my argument was in fact circular, your following (why you value life) argument was also circular - if we used your criterion. Hence the hypocritical thing.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  8. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  9. #207
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Adrift, note the pattern of these last two posts.
    Yeah, cause Adrift can't possibly discern anything without you pointing it out. He's much sharper than you give him credit, Carpe.

    They are marvelous examples of my earlier statement about people here not being able to stay with the argument at hand, instead diverting to statements about the person making the arguments. My new self-challenge is not to rise to this kind of post, and to simply stay focused on the arguments.
    Yet, you couldn't resist.

    May I be more successful than I am with "last word to you." I'm still hovering at about 50% on that one.
    I'll let you have the last word on this.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. #208
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Well Carp, I do get frustrated with you at times. You have accused me for instance of not understanding the basic laws of logic, which I do. You suggested that I used a circular argument, which I didn't. And that if my argument was in fact circular, your following (why you value life) argument was also circular - if we used your criterion. Hence the hypocritical thing.
    Seer, when someone makes the statement that the car is not starting because the ignition circuit in the tailpipe is malfunctioning, I conclude they lack a certain understanding about cars.

    When someone argues that the minor premises in a syllogism must logically proceed from the major premise, and continually asserts that for soundly structured syllogisms, I conclude they lack a certain understanding of basic logic. When someone makes a circular argument - and then continually claims they have not, even when the logic of how they have gone in a circle is laid out, then I question their grasp of logic. You never addressed the place where I specifically outlined your circularity - you simply repeatedly asserted it was not.

    You are welcome to show how the "why I value life" argument is circular. I have not seen that argument put forward (or at least I do not recall it), and I am not sure exactly how you would make that argument to begin with. What we value can be rooted in logic, but is not necessarily so rooted. It may be rooted in experience. It may be rooted in simple attraction. How we come to value what we value is highly subjective and complex, and I don't believe I ever claimed it is always rooted in logic or that it needs to always be rooted in logic.

    As for hypocrisy - I'll leave you to your conclusions. I'm working on letting people have their opinions and just focusing on the arguments. They are what I am primarily interested in. What you do or do not think of me has no consequence because it doesn't change who I actually am one whit.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #209
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    If I make the meaning of my life, "serving the poor," then that is the meaning I have assigned to my life...
    Yes, I've dealt with that already by pointing out that you beg the question that "serving the poor" is objectively meaningful in and of itself, which is to say that it is an inherently meaningful act even if nobody does it. A theist can account for this reality. An atheist can not.

    And that's the last round for me. I leave it to others to decide which of us presented the more compelling argument.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. #210
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Yes, I've dealt with that already by pointing out that you beg the question that "serving the poor" is objectively meaningful in and of itself, which is to say that it is an inherently meaningful act even if nobody does it. A theist can account for this reality. An atheist can not.

    And that's the last round for me. I leave it to others to decide which of us presented the more compelling argument.
    MM, the term "objectively meaningful in and of itself" is an oxymoron. Meaning is a value assigned to a symbol by a sentient mind. Without the sentient mind, it does not exist. A mountain is an objective reality. We assign that reality to the word "mountain." The mountain is not "objectively meaningful in and of itself" - it simply is what it is.

    Likewise, "serving the poor" is an objective reality. Assigning it to be the "meaning of my life" is a simple assignment of meaning. You may make the meaning of your life "to spread the Christian message."

    You are again ignoring the simple logic. And I note that you did not identify which point of the argument was false/flawed or how the parallelism in the argument failed. What you are doing, instead, is to create a new, specialized class of "meaning" that you are requiring to have attributes that are not supported by the dictionary definition OR by common usage. Why you are doing this, only you can know. But it doesn't withstand scrutiny.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-17-2019 at 07:40 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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