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Thread: Same Sex Marriages, Florists, and Bakers

  1. #41
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - that is not Michel's position. I am reasonably sure Seer had reasons for selecting the bible as his moral framework. He has never struct me as an irrational man. We ALL have reasons why we have chosen the specific moral framework we have chosen.
    Michel has a hard time expressing his positions clearly, as evidenced by much confusion throughout the forum.

  2. #42
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Michel has a hard time expressing his positions clearly, as evidenced by much confusion throughout the forum.
    I think he expresses himself just fine. The problem is that the positions he expresses are often contradictory, and when he can't reconcile them, he accuses us of misunderstanding him. He's attempting a sleight-of-hand that is so blatantly obvious that even people in the back of the theater can spot the trick.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. Amen mossrose, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  4. #43
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    So two things here. The US has laws that protect business owners. Frankly I am glad, as a retail worker, we have the right to refuse business with anyone and It allows us to tell vulgar customers, thieves and other people that they MUST LEAVE the store. My store uses this policy.
    Note that vulgar people and thieves are not tolerated in ANY venue. In a public park, they can be arrested for disturbing the peace. So protections for your business against such people make sense. So too do rules about "no shoes, no shirt," and "no public restroom." Even asking malodorous people to leave is perfectly protected. I certainly have not taken issue with any of these things. It is my hope that you are not raising these because you think any of them is of a kind with "getting married to a same sex partner."

    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    It also means that someone can set up a business to serve anyone they choose. Their policies might be terrible and I don't defend them in anyway, but the laws exist to protect a business owner's right to serve or not serve.
    Here you jump the rails a bit. There are some protections for a business choosing whom to serve and not serve. That is done in part by the choice of services to offer. If I choose to open a store that sells women's wigs, I'm choosing to sell to women. However, if a man comes in to buy a wig and I send him packing because he's not a women, then he would be in his rights to sue for sex discrimination. If you choose to open a barbershop that caters to black hairstyles, then you are indirectly choosing to sell to black people. If a white man walks in who happens to have tightly curled hair and you send him packing because he's not black, he would be in his rights to sue you for racial discrimination. If you put up a "whites only" sign in your diner, you can expect to be sued for racial discrimination. Fortunately, in most of the country, that wouldn't happen anymore because most diner owners know if they tried to do that they would have a mob picketing their diner in a heartbeat and business would taper off badly. But that is largely because of the efforts of the Civil Rights era. Had those efforts not been made to put anti-discrimination laws in place, we might well still have "whites only" diners today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    If you don't like that, you are free to become a senator and try to change it,
    I don't need to. We already have anti-discrimination laws in place concerning employment, housing, compensation, and even service provisioning. All that is being fought for now is expanding that umbrella to cover a group not currently well covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    and of course you the customer are free to do business with anyone you want, so if you despise someone's practices (e.g Wal Mart) you don't have to shop there. Its elitist and privileged to think you don't have consumer rights.
    I have never made this argument - so I have no further response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    Secondly skin color is somewhat of a strawman. A person cannot help prevent or change their skin color and the evils of refusing to do business with a skin color are recognized. A person with homosexual orientation CAN choose their behavior, same as I can choose what I want to order to drink. You don't have to have sex to live. Therefore your argument is moot.
    The argument I made is not related to this response, so I have no further response. You might want to go back and read the argument I actually made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    IF a person believes eating meat is wrong you forcing them to eat meat is just as sinful. If a person believes that engaging in homosexual sex is wrong, then forcing them to engage in that practice (e.g. forced participation in their marriage) is equally as wrong.
    Again, since I have not advocated "forcing" anyone to do something, I have no further response. It would be helpful if people focused on the arguments that I have put forward, and not what others have said or what people think I might mean.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #44
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    "Relying on scripture" is just another example of ethical relativism, Seer. You have subjectively and relatively decided to hitch your moral wagon to your interpretation of the scriptures. That you declare it "absolute" and "universal" and "objective" doesn't make it so. You've simply locked your morality to the writings of a small group of men now dead 2-3.5 millenia. SO the question is, how is YOUR subjective/relative morality better/worse than mine. The answer is, your are locked to a static model that is not subject to examination and argumentation. The only form your arguments can take is "what does the book say/mean?" The rest of us can discuss impacts on society, internal consistency, underlying value structures, and a whole host of issues. All you can discuss is "is it in the book?"
    That is false Carp, I am not a moral relativist no matter how many times you claim this. I believe there are universal moral truths, you do not. I believe there are objectively right moral answers, you do not. Whether I'm locked into that book or not you have nothing better, as a matter of fact your position is decidedly worse, as we have discussed in the past. Since the murderous Maoist's position would be just as rational and consistent as yours. And the fact that your "underlying value structures" are largely informed by the Christian culture you were raised in. You have nothing Carp, get over yourself.


    Moral disagreement is a fact of life. It is a fact for Christians. It is a fact for nonchristians. Here's a simple analog. Let's say one group of people believes that cars move, and another believes that cars actually stand still and the planet moves. If the latter group finally acknowledged that it's the cars moving under their own power and not the planet moving, would it worsen or improved the incidence of car accidents? Acknowledging the reality in front of our noses doesn't change the consequences of that reality. You, my friend, are an example of a person who looks at the car and says "the planet is moving." All around you is evidence that morality IS relative/subjective. Even your own morality is relative/subjective. But you tenacious cling to the illusion that you are locked onto an absolute. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't actually MAKE it absolute.
    And that is why I say that marching children into gas chambers is absolutely and universally wrong. And you don't.


    I would require ANY business person that offers a service to do so without bigotry/prejudice/discrimination. No business person is forced to provide a service. They are simply required, if they do so, to do so equitably. That is a condition of doing business in the public sphere.
    So again, you would use force against those who disagree with your above opinion.

    I'll leave this rant to you. It's so filled with inaccuracies, I wouldn't even know where to begin.
    Like Jacobins and Marxists of old you leftists will use the ideas of social justice to bludgeon the rest of us to conform to your views. Bottom line Carp, I don't trust you, your ethics, or the state.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  6. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #45
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Michel has a hard time expressing his positions clearly, as evidenced by much confusion throughout the forum.
    That's one possibility. The other possibility, of course, is that the specific people who choose to engage in this discussion continually respond to arguments OTHERS have made about this issue, rather than the ones actually being made, and then insist they are responding to what has been said.

    If history is any indicator - the truth will lie somewhere in between. I have little doubt I could better express myself. Brevity might be a good start.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #46
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I think he expresses himself just fine. The problem is that the positions he expresses are often contradictory,
    ...or perceived to be by those who do not understand the arguments being made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    and when he can't reconcile them, he accuses us of misunderstanding him. He's attempting a sleight-of-hand that is so blatantly obvious that even people in the back of the theater can spot the trick.
    I'll leave this one to you...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #47
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is false Carp, I am not a moral relativist no matter how many times you claim this. I believe there are universal moral truths, you do not. I believe there are objectively right moral answers, you do not.
    You beleive you are a moral objectivist/absolutist, Seer. Unfortunately, morality is not absolute/objective. You ARE a moral relativist/subjectivist because that is the very nature of morality. A man may believe he is indestructible, but the bullet will still kill him.

    ETA: To be fair, I'm sure you see your moral framework as "correct/true/real" and I am the one living in denial of what is real. "Making myself god" is the way that is usually expressed, IIRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Whether I'm locked into that book or not you have nothing better, as a matter of fact your position is decidedly worse, as we have discussed in the past. Since the murderous Maoist's position would be just as rational and consistent as yours. And the fact that your "underlying value structures" are largely informed by the Christian culture you were raised in. You have nothing Carp, get over yourself.
    Seer, do you think you have any more chance of convincing the Maoist than I? You will quote your book to him, and claim it is absolute/objective all day long, and the Maoist will likely laugh as hard at you as he will at me. And when he refuses to change his POV, you will have the same options as I: ignore, isolate/separate, or contend - all because we live in a subjective/relative moral universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And that is why I say that marching children into gas chambers is absolutely and universally wrong. And you don't.
    I actually do say that marching children into gas chambers is universally wrong. It is wrong when done by anyone anywhere at any time. All people should see that as wrong. Anyone who does it is acting immorally. No problem. Your assumption that "I don't" is incorrect. We all see our own moral framework as the ideal one, by definition, and want all others to agree with us. When they don't, we see them as "immoral." That's how it works. I am not obliged to measure morality by another man's moral code. Morality is subjective. I measure it by MY moral code. So do you. So does everyone. The only difference between you and me is that you have subjugated your moral decision making to "the book." It is your only tool in your conversation with the Maoist. You have to say, "but the book says..." And the Maoist will laugh at your book. He may laugh at me too - but at least I will have the freedom to look at the underlying value structure, look for logical inconsistencies, and engage the Maoist on a wide front of discussion. I'd say my chances are probably better than yours of success. But if we both fail - we both will do the same thing: ignore, isolate/separate, or contend.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So again, you would use force against those who disagree with your above opinion.
    If a business in the U.S. engages in bigoted/prejudicial/discriminatory behavior in their workplace, then I would turn to the courts to contest that behavior, as I would for anything I find to be an injustice in any context. Same with the "whites only" diner and the "blacks at the back of the bus" transportation system.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Like Jacobins and Marxists of old you leftists will use the ideas of social justice to bludgeon the rest of us to conform to your views. Bottom line Carp, I don't trust you, your ethics, or the state.
    That much is clear.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-11-2019 at 08:48 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #48
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You beleive you are a moral objectivist/absolutist, Seer. Unfortunately, morality is not absolute/objective. You ARE a moral relativist/subjectivist because that is the very nature of morality. A man may believe he indestructable. The bullet will still kill him.
    Really Carp? You have already agreed in the past that you can not categorically state that universal moral truths don't exist. And that moral disagreement does not disprove them.

    Seer, do you think you have any more chance of convincing the Maoist than I? You will quote your book to him, and claim it is absolute/objective all day long, and the Maoist will likely laugh as hard at you as he will at me. And when he refuses to change his POV, you will have the same options as I: ignore, isolate/separate, or contend.
    Except in my universe there are right moral answers, and universal justice at the end of the road.

    I actually do say that marching children into gas chambers is universally wrong. All people should see that as wrong. Anyone who does it is acting immorally. No problem. Your assumption that "I don't" is incorrect. We all see our own moral framework as the ideal one, by definition, and want all others to agree with us. When they don't, we see them as "immoral." That's how it works.
    But gassing Jewish children can't actually be universally or absolutely wrong in your world. It is in mine...


    If a business in the U.S. engages in bigoted/prejudicial/discriminatory behavior in their workplace, then I would turn to the courts to contest that behavior, as I would for anything I find to be an injustice in any context. Same with the "whites only" diner and the "blacks at the back of the bus" transportation system.
    But you can actually still have a "whites only" diner. And the federal courts can't stop that if it doesn't run a foul of the commerce clause. Again, you have no Constitutional principle to back up your opinion.


    That much is clear.

    Yes we have seen this movie before...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  11. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  12. #49
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Really Carp? You have already agreed in the past that you can not categorically state that universal moral truths don't exist.
    Assuming you are using "universal" as a substitute for absolute/objective, correct. Morality is not a discipline like mathematics - where there is an objectively true set of equations. There are some objectively true principles - but they are very general and tightly coupled to sentience.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And that moral disagreement does not disprove them.
    Correct. Moral disagreement is not the basis for the claim there are no moral absolutes and morality is not objective. Universal is a different matter. Each of us seeks to universalize our moral framework. That is the very nature of the framework.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except in my universe there are right moral answers, and universal justice at the end of the road.
    I my universe (which is the same as yours, BTW), there are right moral answers. As for justice - we strive for it. Some escape. I suspect that is a major reason why some people cling to the illusion of moral absolutes and a punisher-god. The idea that some people would actually get away with things is anathema. The theory recently put forward, concerning how punisher gods became prevalent when societies grew beyond the point where everyone knows everyone else fits perfectly with what you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But gassing Jewish children can't actually be universally or absolutely wrong in your world. It is in mine...
    Since we all believe our moral codes should be universalized - then anyone who sees gassing children as immoral seeks to have that moral precept universalized. As for absolutes - they don't exist period. You simply think they do. You are trying to go past "this is my moral framework and I think it is best and everyone should be using it" to "this is THE moral framework that everyone should be aligning to." Except you cannot show that to be the case. You can just insist and insist and insist...somewhat pointlessly I might add.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But you can actually still have a "whites only" diner. And the federal courts can't stop that if it doesn't run a foul of the commerce clause. Again, you have no Constitutional principle to back up your opinion.
    Seer, bigotry/discrimination/prejudice in the workplace has been in place for years. All 50 states have such prohibitions in place. The EEOC enforces workplace-related anti-discrimination laws.

    The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. What is happening now is an attempt to widen that to cover groups not previously covered (e.g., the LGBTQ community). The laws are not there yet. Right now we are at the same point we were at in the 1950s and late 1960s. When Rosa Parks refused to move - she had not a shred of legal stance for doing so. It took nine more years of struggle before the FCRA was passed in 1964. Hopefully, in the next decade, a new act will be passed that broadens the coverage. Until then, the rest of us continue to fight to prevent such discrimination in the public market and places of employment.

    I wish it were possible to erase bigotry, prejudice, and discrimination from the planet. Unfortunately, to do that would require more us to sacrifice some very cherished beliefs. People will always have the freedom (I hope) to say and think despicable things - because all of us want the freedom to say and think what we wish. But we CAN place a limit on what people DO.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes we have seen this movie before...
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-11-2019 at 11:17 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  13. #50
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Assuming you are using "universal" as a substitute for absolute/objective, correct. Morality is not a discipline like mathematics - where there is an objectively true set of equations. There are some objectively true principles - but they are very general and tightly coupled to sentience.
    Except Carp, as we discussed, what makes logical and mathematical truths universal is the same thing that makes moral truth universal - God...


    Correct. Moral disagreement is not the basis for the claim there are no moral absolutes and morality is not objective.
    Then how do you prove that morality is not objective?


    Since we all believe our moral codes should be universalized - then anyone who sees gassing children as immoral seeks to have that moral precept universalized. As for absolutes - they don't exist period. You simply think they do. You are trying to go past "this is my moral framework and I think it is best and everyone should be using it" to "this is THE moral framework that everyone should be aligning to." Except you cannot show that to be the case. You can just insist and insist and insist...somewhat pointlessly I might add.
    Prove that moral absolutes don't exist...


    Seer, bigotry/discrimination/prejudice in the workplace has been in place for years. All 50 states have such prohibitions in place. The EEOC enforces workplace-related anti-discrimination laws.

    The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. What is happening now is an attempt to widen that to cover groups not previously covered (e.g., the LGBTQ community). The laws are not there yet. Right now we are at the same point we were at in the 1950s and late 1960s. When Rosa Parks refused to move - she had not a shred of legal stance for doing so. It took nine more years of struggle before the FCRA was passed in 1964. Hopefully, in the next decade, a new act will be passed that broadens the coverage. Until then, the rest of us continue to fight to prevent such discrimination in the public market and places of employment.
    No Carp, the The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 only prohibits such discrimination IF there is interstate commerce involved.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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