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  1. #51
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except Carp, as we discussed, what makes logical and mathematical truths universal is the same thing that makes moral truth universal - God...
    There is no such being. Even if there were, morality would still be subject to this being as a sentient (presumably) being.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Then how do you prove that morality is not objective?
    Prove as in "mathematically?" I don't. Prove as in "scientifically?" I don't. Prove as in create an iron-clad syllogism? I don't. None of those is possible, AFAICT.

    The proof is more in the nature of a legal one: beyond a reasonable doubt. I look at the available evidence and see where it takes me. I have already done that multiple times in multiple threads. You don't find the evidence compelling because you are still clinging to the notion of a god (see above). There's not much I can do about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Prove that moral absolutes don't exist...
    Prove that god exists!

    You see, Seer, we have the same problem. There are some things that cannot be definitively proven. The best we can do is look at the available evidence and conclude, "this seems to me to be the most likely situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Carp, the The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 only prohibits such discrimination IF there is interstate commerce involved.
    First, in this age of globalism and nationalism, do you think there are many publicly facing businesses that do NOT have an interstate component to them, whether it is where they source their product, the reach of their supply chain, or where they sell their goods?

    Second, for those that do not, there are equivalent statutes at the state level in most states.

    Third, since the 1930s, SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that Congress has the power to regulate intrastate transactions if they have the potential to impact interstate commerce. The is the power the FCRA of 1964 taps in putting regulatory constraints on intrastate businesses. Your reading of the FCRA appears to be focused on two specific clauses that deal with interstate commerce. You should read the rest of the act. BTW - this is also the basis for the FCRA extending to housing discrimination.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-11-2019 at 12:01 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #52
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    There is no such being. Even if there were, morality would still be subject to this being as a sentient (presumably) being.
    Yes, but logically His moral sense would be both universal and absolute:

    P1. God thinks and acts morally, he embodies moral truths.
    P2. God is omnipresent, inhabiting all points of the universe.
    P3. Godís moral nature is immutable.
    C4. Therefore absolute moral truths exist universally.

    The same as with logical truths:

    P1. God thinks and creates rationally, he embodies conceptual logical truths.
    P2. God is omnipresent, inhabiting all points of the universe.
    P3. Godís rational nature is immutable.
    C4. Therefore conceptual logical absolutes exist universally.


    Prove as in mathematically? I don't. Prove as in scientifically? I don't. Prove as in "gather evidence and see where it takes you?" I have already done that multiple times. You don't find the evidence compelling because you are still clinging to the notion of a god (see above). There's not much I can do about that.
    So you can't prove it, you base your opinion on your limited and finite experience? And that has weight why?


    First, in this age of globalism and nationalism, do you think there are many publicly facing businesses that do NOT have an interstate component to them, whether it is where they source their product, the reach of their supply chain, or where they sell their goods?

    Second, for those that do not, there are equivalent statutes at the state level in most states.

    Third, since the 1930s, SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that Congress has the power to regulate intrastate transactions if they have the potential to impact interstate commerce. The is the power the FCRA of 1964 taps in putting regulatory constraints on intrastate businesses. Your reading of the FCRA appears to be focused on two specific clauses that deal with interstate commerce. You should read the rest of the act. BTW - this is also the basis for the FCRA extending to housing discrimination.
    I have read it Carp, and recently. You can not make a Constitutional case for anti-discrimination laws as applied to private business - period. That is why they had to go at it by the backdoor, the commerce clause. If I had a business and only served within my state and only purchased products in my state I would not run a foul of the Civil Rights act. That is a fact.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  3. #53
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    My responses embedded:

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes, but logically His moral sense would be both universal and absolute:

    P1. God thinks and acts morally, he embodies moral truths. MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise
    P2. God is omnipresent, inhabiting all points of the universe. MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise
    P3. Godís moral nature is immutable. MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise
    C4. Therefore absolute moral truths exist universally.

    MICHEL: you cannot show any of your premises to be true, your conclusion may be valid (I didn't actually trace the argument closely enough to determine that), but it cannot be shown to be true.

    The same as with logical truths:

    P1. God thinks and creates rationally, he embodies conceptual logical truths. MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise
    P2. God is omnipresent, inhabiting all points of the universe. MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise
    P3. Godís rational nature is immutable. MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise
    C4. Therefore conceptual logical absolutes exist universally.

    MICHEL: same comment


    So you can't prove it, you base your opinion on your limited and finite experience?
    Of course. What else would a limited and finite being do?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And that has weight why?
    Seer, are you somehow under the impression that you are NOT basing your opinions on a limited and finite experience? Did you suddenly become an infinite, omniscient, and eternal being when I wasn't looking?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I have read it Carp, and recently. You can not make a Constitutional case for anti-discrimination laws as applied to private business - period. That is why they had to go at it by the backdoor, the commerce clause. If I had a business and only served within my state and only purchased products in my state I would not run a foul of the Civil Rights act. That is a fact.
    And yet the FCRA has been in place for 55 years and still ticking without any significant constitutional challenges. I'm not a constitutional scholar - this is true. But then again, neither are you. So I'll take it as evidence that the interpretation of the commerce powers of the Federal government give it powers to regulate in this space, since the FCRA actually allows for that. It has been shown to cover housing, food services, and a whole host of other businesses. Then there are all those pesky state constitutions and laws.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #54
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    My responses embedded:
    MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise

    Like your premises for your moral theories? Yet I can make a logical case for both universal moral and logical truths, you can not.


    Of course. What else would a limited and finite being do?
    Not make absolute statements like moral absolutes don't exist?

    Seer, are you somehow under the impression that you are NOT basing your opinions on a limited and finite experience? Did you suddenly become an infinite, omniscient, and eternal being when I wasn't looking?
    No, but the God I worship is...


    And yet the FCRA has been in place for 55 years and still ticking without any significant constitutional challenges. I'm not a constitutional scholar - this is true. But then again, neither are you. So I'll take it as evidence that the interpretation of the commerce powers of the Federal government give it powers to regulate in this space, since the FCRA actually allows for that. It has been shown to cover housing, food services, and a whole host of other businesses. Then there are all those pesky state constitutions and laws.
    You brought up the Civil Rights act - and my point was that there was no Constitutional grounding for anti-discrimination laws as applied to private business. Hence the use of the commerce clause...
    Last edited by seer; 06-11-2019 at 12:22 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #55
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    MICHEL: you cannot show this to be a true premise

    Like your premises for your moral theories?
    Seer, because morality is relative/subjective, and is rooted in what the individual values, the premises will be subjective. Ergo, their truth will be subjectively true. "Proving" a subjective truth is essentially impossible. I cannot "prove" I like the color blue. I cannot "prove" I value life. That is the nature of subjectivity. I understand that and embrace it as reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yet I can make a logical case for both universal moral and logical truths, you can not.
    And here is where we part company. You have not and cannot do this. Your morality is likewise relative/subjective and no more accessible to proof than mine. You cannot prove to me that you value your god. You cannot prove to me this god exists, or what it's nature is. You cannot prove to me this god inspired your holy book. All of the assumptions you make to arrive at your own moral framework are equally unprovable.

    Seer, anyone can string together a sound syllogism.

    P1) I value life
    P2) A thing that is value should not be destroyed indiscriminately
    C) I should not destroy life indiscriminately

    P1 is true - but I cannot prove it to you because it is an internal, subjective state. P2 would seem to be a reasonable premise probably widely accepted, but in the end it is an opinion. If P1 is true and one accepts P2 as true, C follows logically. See, anyone can do it. You have strung together your own arguments (previous post) and I'll assume they are likewise sound. The problem is, I don't accept your premises as true. I have no cause to. There is nothing about them that aligns with what I have come to know of my world and my universe. SInce I reject the premises as false, your conclusion goes out the door with them.

    If you want me to accept your premises as true, it will take more than just your say-so. After all, you are not claiming that your premises are subjectively true - you are claiming they are objectively true/real. Therefore, they should be subject to some for of objective determination of their truth. As soon as you claim "objective/absolute," you put yourself in this position.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Not make absolute statements like moral absolutes don't exist?
    Unicorns don't exist. I'm not absolute - and not eternal - and not omniscient - but I am knowledgeable enough about human history and the origins of human mythology to conclude "unicorns do not exist." Is it possible I am wrong? Sure. Is it probable. I doubt it. Likewise, god's do not exist. They are also creatures of human mythology. Morality is clearly and evidently subjective and relative. It has none of the hallmarks of mathematics or logic and all of the hallmarks of human laws. If it is subjective/relative, then it is not absolute/objective. There is no basis for thinking otherwise. Until you provide me with one, it is what I am going to continue to believe. Could I be wrong? Always possible. Am I wrong? I find it unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, but the God I worship is...
    You mean the god you have determined exists on the basis of your finite and limited logic and experience? That god? The one that is one of many gods described by human beings since the dawn of humanity? The one that is described in the writings of men who lived 2000-3500 years ago who were likewise finite beings of limited experience?

    You pile conclusion on top of conclusion, all arrived at by finite and limited beings - and arrive at "absolute" and "objective" knowledge? Really? How on earth does THAT work?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You brought up the Civil Rights act - and my point was that there was no Constitutional grounding for anti-discrimination laws as applied to private business. Hence the use of the commerce clause...
    And the commerce clause is in the constitution... remember...? And it has survived judicial scrutiny now for 55 years. I think I'll accept that as evidence that the is power in the Constitution for the government to regulate private business. And the fact that it is primarily interstate is a function of how we operate as a country. The federal government tends to hold sway for international and interstate issues; the states for intrastate issues unless they are interstate-related. That is why we have 51 sets of civil rights legislation: federal and 50 states. It is also why we have an FCC as well as 50 PUC/PSCs, one for each state. Interstate is regulated federally - intrastate is regulated at the state level. The U.S. Constitution governs at the federal level. State Constitutions govern at the state level, with the constraint that they may not subvert or overrule the U.S. Constitution. That's how our government works.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #56
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You beleive you are a moral objectivist/absolutist, Seer. Unfortunately, morality is not absolute/objective. You ARE a moral relativist/subjectivist because that is the very nature of morality. A man may believe he is indestructible, but the bullet will still kill him.


    I think we've gone over this once before, using the term "moral objectivist/absolutist" in the idiosyncratic way you're doing is not going to help make the discussion clearer.

    If you're an "-ist" about something, regardless of what it is, it simply means that you have certain beliefs about that something. Whether you're correct about those beliefs or not is absolutely irrelevant as to whether you really are a "those beliefs"-ist or not.

    Using your logic I would have to conclude that every atheist out there is actually a theist, because whatever they might believe, the fact of the matter is that the very nature of reality is that there is a ultimate cause and upholder of the cosmos called God, and regardless of what the "atheist" might believe it's still a fact that his very existence is dependent on that God's continuously sustaining providence. So the atheist might believe that the intellectual faculties he's using to come to the conclusion that belief in God is not warranted came into being and continue to exist without divine power and guidance, but reality contradicts him.

    Of course, the above is actually ridiculous, and not something I'm proposing to put forth as a serious argument. But my point is that I have a hard time seeing how your "everyone is actually a 'moral relativist/subjectivist' because whatever someone might believe about morality the fact of the matter is that the very nature of morality is relative"-claim is not equally absurd and abusive of the English language.

  7. Amen Cerebrum123, Adrift, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  8. #57
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Morality is clearly and evidently subjective and relative. It has none of the hallmarks of mathematics or logic and all of the hallmarks of human laws. If it is subjective/relative, then it is not absolute/objective. There is no basis for thinking otherwise.
    Frankly, based on this, I'm not sure why you haven't thrown your hands up in nihilistic despair and declared like King Solomon, "Vanity! Vanity! All is vanity"

    "I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun."

    Of course very few atheists have the intellectual honesty and courage to follow their worldview to its only logical conclusion, and I suspect it's because, deep down, they know it's a lie.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. #58
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    And here is where we part company. You have not and cannot do this. Your morality is likewise relative/subjective and no more accessible to proof than mine. You cannot prove to me that you value your god. You cannot prove to me this god exists, or what it's nature is. You cannot prove to me this god inspired your holy book. All of the assumptions you make to arrive at your own moral framework are equally unprovable.
    I did not say prove, I made a deductive case for both universal moral truths and the universality of logical truths, which are conceptual.

    Seer, anyone can string together a sound syllogism.

    P1) I value life
    P2) A thing that is value should not be destroyed indiscriminately
    C) I should not destroy life indiscriminately

    P1 is true - but I cannot prove it to you because it is an internal, subjective state. P2 would seem to be a reasonable premise probably widely accepted, but in the end it is an opinion. If P1 is true and one accepts P2 as true, C follows logically. See, anyone can do it. You have strung together your own arguments (previous post) and I'll assume they are likewise sound. The problem is, I don't accept your premises as true. I have no cause to. There is nothing about them that aligns with what I have come to know of my world and my universe. SInce I reject the premises as false, your conclusion goes out the door with them.

    If you want me to accept your premises as true, it will take more than just your say-so. After all, you are not claiming that your premises are subjectively true - you are claiming they are objectively true/real. Therefore, they should be subject to some for of objective determination of their truth. As soon as you claim "objective/absolute," you put yourself in this position.
    You are correct, premise two does not follow deductively so this is not a sound syllogism. Second, as a theist I can deductively account for inherent human value, you can not. I also can deductively account for the universality and immutability of the laws of logic (which are conceptual) - you can not. So in this debate Carp, logic is not your friend. So what do you have left?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #59
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post


    I think we've gone over this once before, using the term "moral objectivist/absolutist" in the idiosyncratic way you're doing is not going to help make the discussion clearer.

    If you're an "-ist" about something, regardless of what it is, it simply means that you have certain beliefs about that something. Whether you're correct about those beliefs or not is absolutely irrelevant as to whether you really are a "those beliefs"-ist or not.

    Using your logic I would have to conclude that every atheist out there is actually a theist, because whatever they might believe, the fact of the matter is that the very nature of reality is that there is a ultimate cause and upholder of the cosmos called God, and regardless of what the "atheist" might believe it's still a fact that his very existence is dependent on that God's continuously sustaining providence. So the atheist might believe that the intellectual faculties he's using to come to the conclusion that belief in God is not warranted came into being and continue to exist without divine power and guidance, but reality contradicts him.

    Of course, the above is actually ridiculous, and not something I'm proposing to put forth as a serious argument. But my point is that I have a hard time seeing how your "everyone is actually a 'moral relativist/subjectivist' because whatever someone might believe about morality the fact of the matter is that the very nature of morality is relative"-claim is not equally absurd and abusive of the English language.
    Thank you....
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  11. #60
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Frankly, based on this, I'm not sure why you haven't thrown your hands up in nihilistic despair and declared like King Solomon, "Vanity! Vanity! All is vanity"

    "I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun."

    Of course very few atheists have the intellectual honesty and courage to follow their worldview to its only logical conclusion, and I suspect it's because, deep down, they know it's a lie.
    Actually I do remember Carp agreeing that he was an existential nihilist by definition.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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