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  1. #191
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    ...carpe points out something MM cannot logically refute...
    What can't he refute?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #192
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes but just a little better, you are still in that top tier, according to you...
    Yes. I actually work at it, and am generally successful. Just not as successful as Adrift.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Let me tell you what my experience in debating you is Carp. You use ad hominem as much as any one, you are just more subtle.
    Or you are reading "ad hominem" where there is none...

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Just putting yourself in the top tier of posters on this site, from my experience of you, is just delusional.
    Your opinion is duly noted...

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Same to you bro...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #193
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    What can't he refute?
    That subjective meaning exists (i.e., is real) and is used by all of us every day.

    Even attempting to refute it is self-defeating, because he has to use symbols/words (whose meaning is subjectively determined) to do so. And pointing out that the meaning is based in an objective reality doesn't help him. Our discussion was about the assignment of meaning, and it is the assignment of meaning to the symbol that is subjective, just as assigning meaning to action or anything else is subjective.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-16-2019 at 08:49 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #194
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I agree!
    That's kind of you, but the longer I've been on forums, and the older I get, I've found myself becoming more of a curmudgeon. I don't have the patience to listen to people repeat the same arguments over and over again, and there's something about online forums that attract a personality type that is more interested in arguing than listening, winning the discussion rather than moving the discussion forward. That just wears me out. I'd rather let someone have the last word than pick apart their reasoning for the nth time.

    I still think discussion should be genial when possible, and I'm a stickler for thinking that Christians have a duty to share the hope in them with gentleness and respect. I still think name calling, and insulting people is contrary to the Christian witness, and i still think that when we use scripture to back harsh challenge/riposte style behavior, we miss the point of the cultural context, and the authority that the men of God in those situations carried. But I also realize that trying to convince people of that is a losing battle, and find myself wanting to simply cut through the crap and get at the heart of the discussion. That means, depending on who I'm dealing with, I'm more likely to offer a dry and blunt reply telling you exactly what I think rather than fluffing it up with flowery language. I don't mean to come off terse, or to be a jerk about it, and I could probably be more tactful, but I don't have the endurance anymore to tiptoe round and round over something that I suspect others are thinking as well.

    Also, people in forums are so quick to point out that they're emotionless when they post. Everyone thinks they're stiff little Vulcans or something. It's okay to admit when you're frustrated with a poster, or that you're angry at someone or what have you. I get plenty emotional when I post. Just don't make your arguments emotion-based arguments, and don't that emotion with you when you log off.

    In my opinion, someone like seer is a top tier poster. I don't always agree with his politics or even his theology, but the dude has the tenacity of a cockroach, and you need that with some of the skeptics on this website. I don't know how he does it, but I take my hat off to him.

  5. Amen Cow Poke, KingsGambit amen'd this post.
  6. #195
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    ...find myself wanting to simply cut through the crap and get at the heart of the discussion. That means, depending on who I'm dealing with, I'm more likely to offer a dry and blunt reply telling you exactly what I think rather than fluffing it up with flowery language. I don't mean to come off terse, or to be a jerk about it, and I could probably be more tactful, but I don't have the endurance anymore to tiptoe round and round over something that I suspect others are thinking as well.
    Welcome to the "dark side", my friend.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  7. #196
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    That's kind of you, but the longer I've been on forums, and the older I get, I've found myself becoming more of a curmudgeon. I don't have the patience to listen to people repeat the same arguments over and over again, and there's something about online forums that attract a personality type that is more interested in arguing than listening, winning the discussion rather than moving the discussion forward. That just wears me out. I'd rather let someone have the last word than pick apart their reasoning for the nth time.

    I still think discussion should be genial when possible, and I'm a stickler for thinking that Christians have a duty to share the hope in them with gentleness and respect. I still think name calling, and insulting people is contrary to the Christian witness, and i still think that when we use scripture to back harsh challenge/riposte style behavior, we miss the point of the cultural context, and the authority that the men of God in those situations carried. But I also realize that trying to convince people of that is a losing battle, and find myself wanting to simply cut through the crap and get at the heart of the discussion. That means, depending on who I'm dealing with, I'm more likely to offer a dry and blunt reply telling you exactly what I think rather than fluffing it up with flowery language. I don't mean to come off terse, or to be a jerk about it, and I could probably be more tactful, but I don't have the endurance anymore to tiptoe round and round over something that I suspect others are thinking as well.
    HAP, as my wife and I say - which means "heard and processing." It's our way of telling each other that we are listening and considering. The phenomenon of "only interested in arguing" is one I am familiar with. My own love for a good debate that delves into concepts and issues often gets me painted as "just wants to argue." In a sense, that is correct, if meant in the formal sense. I want to talk with people who disagree with me. I don't learn anything when I only talk to people who agree, so I find little attraction to jumping into a discussion where I already agree with what is being said. All that does is further reinforce what I already think, rather than challenging it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Also, people in forums are so quick to point out that they're emotionless when they post. Everyone thinks they're stiff little Vulcans or something. It's okay to admit when you're frustrated with a poster, or that you're angry at someone or what have you. I get plenty emotional when I post. Just don't make your arguments emotion-based arguments, and don't that emotion with you when you log off.
    I'm not sure if this is in response to some of my recent posts. If it is, then you have misunderstood my posts. I have been emotional here on more than one occasion, and written things I was sorry for afterwards. But I am accused of emotional responses far more often than I actually have them. For me, most of these arguments are like exploring a geometric construct. I'm interested in how they were assembled, how they hang together, and whether they are strong enough to bear weight or too weak to stand. There are exceptions, of course. The homosexual discussion is a good example. That argument impacts people's lives, so I am more passionate about the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    In my opinion, someone like seer is a top tier poster. I don't always agree with his politics or even his theology, but the dude has the tenacity of a cockroach, and you need that with some of the skeptics on this website. I don't know how he does it, but I take my hat off to him.
    Yes, well...what to say about that...

    I have met Seer and was impressed with him as a person. And he is definitely tenacious in this forum, a fact that can be attested to by the length of our morality debate/discussion (among other things). I find he has a tendency to slip into treating people who disagree with him as in some way intrinsically disingenuous or hypocritical. I find he would rather leap to "you're a hypocrite" than "this thing you said here doesn't seem to go with this other thing you said there - how do you explain that?" In other words, if the person he is talking to is saying something he doesn't agree with or finds is not well structured, the person he's talking to must be somehow malicious. He doesn't seem to entertain the possibility that the person may have made an error, or that he may not have understood what was being said.

    This leap on the part of so many here is one that always leaves me shaking my head.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-16-2019 at 10:52 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #197
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    That subjective meaning exists (i.e., is real) and is used by all of us every day.

    Even attempting to refute it is self-defeating, because he has to use symbols/words (whose meaning is subjectively determined) to do so. And pointing out that the meaning is based in an objective reality doesn't help him. Our discussion was about the assignment of meaning, and it is the assignment of meaning to the symbol that is subjective, just as assigning meaning to action or anything else is subjective.
    Let's put it this way:

    Objective reality is what gives meaning to words; words don't give meaning to objective reality. When your kid comes to you and says, "What does this word mean?" you don't say, "Words are subjectively defined, so it means whatever you want it to mean." (At least I'm assuming that's not what you say. I must confess, knowing you, that's not a safe assumption.) Rather, you point to something that objectively exists and say, "This is what It means." Furthermore, if something exists in reality, it exists whether or not we have a word to describe it.

    As an analogy for "the meaning of life", this implies that there is an objective reality which imbues your life with meaning in the same way that objective reality imbues words with meaning; furthermore, it implies that one's life has meaning even if one is not aware of it (Adrift's example of a child in a Nazi death camp); however, your worldview can not account for the existence of such a reality, and you end up contradicting yourself. Either your worldview is true, and therefore your life has no meaning; or your life has meaning, and therefore your worldview is false. You can't have it both ways.

    This is essentially the same rebuttal I presented before, just worded differently, so I'm not sure on what basis you claim I was unable to respond to your argument, but I suppose it makes you feel better if that's what you tell yourself. To be frank, I'm not sure I have the patience for another round of this nonsense.
    Last edited by Mountain Man; 06-16-2019 at 06:26 PM.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  10. #198
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Let's put it this way:

    Objective reality is what gives meaning to words; words don't give meaning to objective reality. When your kid comes to you and says, "What does this word mean?" you don't say, "Words are subjectively defined, so it means whatever you want it to mean." (At least I'm assuming that's not what you say. I must confess, knowing you, that's not a safe assumption.) Rather, you point to something that objectively exists and say, "This is what It means." Furthermore, if something exists in reality, it exists whether or not we have a word to describe it.

    As an analogy for "the meaning of life", this implies that there is an objective reality which imbues your life with meaning in the same way that objective reality imbues words with meaning; furthermore, it implies that one's life has meaning even if one is not aware of it (Adrift's example of a child in a Nazi death camp); however, your worldview can not account for the existence of such a reality, and you end up contradicting yourself. Either your worldview is true, and therefore your life has no meaning; or your life has meaning, and therefore your worldview is false. You can't have it both ways.

    This is essentially the same rebuttal I presented before, just worded differently, so I'm not sure on what basis you claim I was unable to respond to your argument, but I suppose it makes you feel better if that's what you tell yourself. To be frank, I'm not sure I have the patience for another round of this nonsense.
    Yeah... You've made this point a few times, so when I see carpedm act like it hasn't been addressed in later posts after he's quoted and replied to it, it's just like...eh, either he doesn't get it, or is acting like he didn't read it. It's okay if he doesn't agree with it, but acting like you haven't addressed it all is like, oh well....An answer has been given. Other people can read it. There's not much more to say at this point.

  11. #199
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Welcome to the "dark side", my friend.

  12. #200
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Yeah... You've made this point a few times, so when I see carpedm act like it hasn't been addressed in later posts after he's quoted and replied to it, it's just like...eh, either he doesn't get it, or is acting like he didn't read it. It's okay if he doesn't agree with it, but acting like you haven't addressed it all is like, oh well....An answer has been given. Other people can read it. There's not much more to say at this point.
    I agree, and I admit that it's possible I was drawn in by carpe's trolling. He's one of the best in that department because he's so subtle about it.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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