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Thread: Same Sex Marriages, Florists, and Bakers

  1. #11
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I think people should have the right to run their business however they see fit regardless of their rational so long as they are not creating an undue hardship or endangering lives. Of course "undue hardship" is open to interpretation, but I think we can all agree that being denied a cake or flowers for your homosexual wedding does not qualify.
    I think you are wrong in your assumption (bolded). I, for one, don't agree.

    When a person walks the streets of a city, and there is a place of business offering services to the general public, I consider it "undue hardship" if the person is taking a chance entering because they could be rejected on the basis of who they are. It is an undue hardship for a black man to walk into a restaurant and be told "I don't serve your kind." It is an undue hardship if a woman walks into a restaurant and is told "I don't serve your kind." It is undo hardship if a gay person, Latino, short person, or any other group is so targeted.

    There is a long history of requiring businesses to avoid discrimination in their hiring, in their compensation, in housing, and even in services provided. I have no problem with laws that say, "if you are going to offer service or run a business in the public square, it must be done equitably and available to all unless there is a compelling reason to refuse (i.e., inadequate resources, lack of profit from the transaction, not enough time, too great a distance, disturbance of other clients, etc.).

    A person is entitled to their beliefs. A society is entitled to say "this is the kind of community we want to foster." Fostering a community in which bigotry and prejudice are not deemed acceptable is perfectly acceptable to me.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019 at 01:19 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #12
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Your interpretation of "undue hardship" is not reasonable. Denying someone a job or a place to live because of social factors is an undue hardship because those things are typically a matter of survival. Being denied a flower arrangement service for your wedding is not in the same category.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. Amen NorrinRadd, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yeah - pretty much by people here trying to refute the arguments. Oddly enough, I don't get "all over the map" about my arguments anywhere but here on TWeb and only with a consistent (and relatively small) set of posters.

    The arguments are not complex, Seer. And they are pretty logically laid out. The responses, however, usually have more to do with what someone else has incorrectly inferred from my posts than they have to do with what I actually said. Perhaps that is why you experience it as "all over the map."
    I like to know where I did that or misunderstood your point.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #14
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Your interpretation of "undue hardship" is not reasonable. Denying someone a job or a place to live because of social factors is an undue hardship because those things are typically a matter of survival. Being denied a flower arrangement service for your wedding is not in the same category.
    Actually, it would be "being denied a floral arrangement for your 'wedding' from a particular vendor"..... In most locations, there is more than one florist.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  6. Amen RumTumTugger, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #15
    Department Head
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Actually, it would be "being denied a floral arrangement for your 'wedding' from a particular vendor"..... In most locations, there is more than one florist.
    I want to know how not having one particular vendor do your flower arrangements or bake your cake stops you from having your wedding?

  8. #16
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Your interpretation of "undue hardship" is not reasonable.
    ...to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Denying someone a job or a place to live because of social factors is an undue hardship because those things are typically a matter of survival. Being denied a flower arrangement service for your wedding is not in the same category.
    Being denied lunch at a counter is also not a "matter of survival." "Undue hardship" is not just related to bare survival. It also extends, more generally, to our quality of life. Basically, anyone who would set out to deny another a quality of life that is accorded all others in the same circumstance is imposing "undue hardship," IMO.

    Indeed, even the ADA defines "undue hardship" in terms of cost and business disruption - not "survival."
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019 at 04:21 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #17
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I like to know where I did that or misunderstood your point.
    Seer - you've been doing that pretty much from the outset of most of our discussions. I spend more time with you, Moss, CP, Sparko, OBP, MM, Pix, and (more recently) Tab and Jim trying to bring you back from what I did NOT say than I spend responding to rebuttals of arguments I have actually made. I'm not going to spend a great deal of time going back and finding them all. You'll have to be content with my pointing them out going forward.

    But from this side of the Internet, the experience is:

    1) Michel says X
    2) The usual cast of characters responds "you said Y"
    3) Michel spends a great deal of time trying to get back to the original discussion
    4) The usual cast of characters then complains "all over the map" and "dodge and weave."

    Lately, I've just taken to responding with "I din't say that, so I have no further response" and staying with the things I actually DID say. It helps - a little.

    ETA: to your credit, you're the only one in the other thread that actually picked up on the argument I was making, but that was largely due to a long discussion we had in another thread on the same topic. And the time it took me (in that thread) to get you to a point where you understood the argument as it was being put forward was pages and pages and pages of text, most of them devoted to pulling you back from what I did NOT say. Sparko also appears to finally get it (I think), but his contribution is "that's idiotic." You're the only one who actually addressed the argument as put forward - by listing other places where morality is determined (by some people) based on genetics. It made me have to consider how that fit into my moral framework. Tab still apparently thinks I'm arguing that homosexuality is genetically based. Moss is stuck on "I think Christians are bigots." The list goes on. It's no big shakes - but it does get tedious.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019 at 04:04 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #18
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumTumTugger View Post
    I want to know how not having one particular vendor do your flower arrangements or bake your cake stops you from having your wedding?
    Or how it qualifies as an undue hardship. A mere inconvenience (in this case, having to find another vendor) doesn't meet the legal definition.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  11. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  12. #19
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumTumTugger View Post
    I want to know how not having one particular vendor do your flower arrangements or bake your cake stops you from having your wedding?
    It doesn't. That was never claimed.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  13. #20
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Or how it qualifies as an undue hardship. A mere inconvenience (in this case, having to find another vendor) doesn't meet the legal definition.
    Can you please provide the source for the "legal definition" of undue hardship? I'd be curious to read it. I'm familiar the the ADA definitions and tests, but I've seen nothing outside of that.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019 at 04:22 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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