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Thread: Designer enzymes

  1. #141
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
    Feel free to explain why you dishonestly quote-mined and lied about the overview article which gave three possible evolutionary pathways for ribozyme. You quote mined the first pathway which was described as extremely unlikely for more complex ribozymes and completely ignored the other two pathways which have supporting positive evidence.
    Well, the other two pathways describe modifying an existing ribozyme, so for the first ribozymes, only the first pathway applies.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #142
    tWebber HMS_Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, the other two pathways describe modifying an existing ribozyme, so for the first ribozymes, only the first pathway applies.
    The first ribozymes were described as simple with as little as only three conserved nucleotides. I guess you "accidentally" overlooked that.

    An example for a small ribozyme is the recently discovered aminoacylating ribozyme with three conserved nucleotides (Chumachenko et al., 2009); this ribozyme would have been a frequent guest in an RNA world.
    The fact is you got caught lying about the evidence which blows your "it's too improbable to evolve" nonsense right out of the water. Same as always for Dishonest Dory.

  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #143
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
    The first ribozymes were described as simple with as little as only three conserved nucleotides.
    Well, three conserved nucleotides doesn't mean you can make a ribozyme out of three nucleotides! I picked a ribozyme that was proposed to be involved in the RNA world, do you have a different specific candidate?

    The fact is you got caught lying about the evidence which blows your "it's too improbable to evolve" nonsense right out of the water.
    No, I'm not saying it's too improbable to evolve, I'm saying it's too improbable to form randomly.

    Source: Muller

    Low probabilities like these present a major hurdle for many ribozymes to appear in an RNA world.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #144
    tWebber HMS_Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, three conserved nucleotides doesn't mean you can make a ribozyme out of three nucleotides! I picked a ribozyme that was proposed to be involved in the RNA world, do you have a different specific candidate?
    Keep up the quote mining and lying about the evidence Lee. Jesus is just busting his buttons with pride.

    No, I'm not saying it's too improbable to evolve, I'm saying it's too improbable to form randomly.
    So we're right back to your stupid "it's too improbable" calculation which doesn't take into account non-random feedback from evolutionary processes.

    Notice how since he can no longer deny the evidence Lee starts his backpedaling and word twisting to get out of the huge hole he dug for himself. A command performance by Dory!

  6. #145
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, three conserved nucleotides doesn't mean you can make a ribozyme out of three nucleotides! I picked a ribozyme that was proposed to be involved in the RNA world, do you have a different specific candidate?


    No, I'm not saying it's too improbable to evolve, I'm saying it's too improbable to form randomly.
    It does not form randomly, it forms by natural processes according to laws of nature, as cited in the articles you failed to respond to. To form randomly it would conclude that natural processes are random, and they are not. You are consistently misusing the concept of randomness to justify your agenda.

    Source: Muller

    Low probabilities like these present a major hurdle for many ribozymes to appear in an RNA world.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    Simplistic quotes without coherent argument concerning his math is meaningless considering he makes the same unethical use of statistics, and chemistry as you, and as cited and . . .

    You still have failed to respond to the references that explain ribosomes in abiogenesis, and the referenced thread where I busted ID proponents unethical us of probability..
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-20-2019 at 07:32 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

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  7. #146
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Oh, but I asked for your calculations...
    Got sent out of town on work for a bit, so have been out of action.

    Allow me to introduce you to basic statistics. If something has happened, then the probability that it can happen is defined as 1. (Same with the probability that something will happen if it always happens.) Maybe you can tell me what calculation you'd do to demonstrate that?
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  8. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  9. #147
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Source: Muller

    The first pathway would have been most important in the beginning of the RNA world, where ribozymes would have to appear de novo from more or less random sequences.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Right, the first ribozyme would have to appear de novo, randomly. Then they state "by amplification of the fittest", which I expect explains "more or less random sequences", and this is offered without any explanation that I can see. But for any amplification of the fittest to occur, there need to be repeated ribozymes, and the probability of that appears to be astronomical.
    And yet you provided a paper here that showed a pool of random sequences contained multiple enzymatic activities. Which suggests the probability is much better than your calculation. How could this be?

    Very simple: there's more than one sequence with the same enzymatic activity.

    The reason for that comes down to basic biochemistry. These sequences have a lot of internal base pairing and, in most cases, all that matters is that the bases pair - their precise identity is irrelevant. The length of the base paired sequences are often flexible, too. As a result, there are huge families of sequences that can form the right structure for catalytic activity.

    So Lee's probability is based on a completely flawed understanding of biochemistry.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  10. Amen shunyadragon, Roy amen'd this post.
  11. #148
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Allow me to introduce you to basic statistics. If something has happened, then the probability that it can happen is defined as 1.
    It's important to keep in mind the timeframe in which you view an event. If I roll snake-eyes, the probability of that, viewed in the timeframe before the event, is 1/36. Viewed after the event, it's 1. What people are generally interested in is the probability viewed in the timeframe before the event.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  12. #149
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    It's important to keep in mind the timeframe in which you view an event. If I roll snake-eyes, the probability of that, viewed in the timeframe before the event, is 1/36. Viewed after the event, it's 1. What people are generally interested in is the probability viewed in the timeframe before the event.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    It remains regardless that the probability is for the event nothing more. If you follow The Lurch's posts, that is what he is describing. That is what my references in the other thread I cited described, and why the ID calculated probability is flawed and unethical use of statistics, which includes Muller's misuse of probability.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-21-2019 at 02:38 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  13. #150
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    These sequences have a lot of internal base pairing and, in most cases, all that matters is that the bases pair - their precise identity is irrelevant. The length of the base paired sequences are often flexible, too. As a result, there are huge families of sequences that can form the right structure for catalytic activity.
    That's a good point, So let's say all the nucleotides are flexible, it's twice as probable that a given nucleotide will work, and calculate 297 cubed, which is 1 in 4 x 1087.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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