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Thread: Changing the Lord's Prayer

  1. #11
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I think this is mostly an English issue; AFAIR the traditional liturgical languages tend to refer to it as the "Our Father".
    That's an interesting point. I was in a hospital room with a friend of a Church member, and that person's mother asked me, as Pastor, to "lead us in 'Our Father'". I honestly didn't know what they were talking about, and she said, "You know, the Lord's Prayer". OH, YES!!!!!

    In the English Orthodox tradition, the argument is over the translation of the next line; is it "but deliver us from evil" or "but deliver us from the evil one"?
    I'm familiar with that argument.
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  2. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I saw The Passion of the Christ and he spoke Aramaic!
    Yeah, that was all Mel Gibson's fault, and his "Old Catholic" obsession.
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  3. #13
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

    Have it your own way, guys.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  4. #14
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

    Have it your own way, guys.
    I don't really see a problem in what the pope changed. The meaning is the same. It is obvious that God doesn't lead us into temptation. He is not the source of temptation, nor does he want us to fall into it, or give into it. So the meaning of the verse is clearly not to let temptation gain control over us, to give us the strength to resist it.

  5. Amen Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
  6. #15
    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Now that the pope has changed the Lord's Prayer, John Piper weighs in. The change in question is changing "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us fall into temptation" (in Mt. 6:13).

    Source: John Piper

    My point here is not whether God “leads us into temptation.” My point is: We should learn whether he does or not from Scripture, not from our prior notions of what good fathers do.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Piper then goes on to point out that the Spirit led Jesus himself into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Mt. 4:1).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I remember seeing an on-line headline like 'Pope Makes Big Change to Lord's Prayer.' Before I read the article I was thinking it was something like he changed "Our Father" to "Our Parent."

    Then I read the article and reflected on how the secular media doesn't understand enough about Christian beliefs to know the difference between a tweak and a big change.

    I then went back to sleep.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  7. Amen Sparko, NorrinRadd, KingsGambit amen'd this post.
  8. #16
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    John Dominic Crossan (admittedly nobody's idea of a devout Christian) argues it does teach that God tempts us, so I can understand a desire to avoid that particular wording.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

    Have it your own way, guys.
    Nobody is saying that...
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  10. #18
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

    Have it your own way, guys.
    I'm sure that if I looked through all the versions of the Bible, I would find at least one rendering it as "save us from temptation" or similar. The Lord's prayer is worded to that effect in the Anglican rite - so it exists in a Bible, or "Bible" at least, somewhere. It seems that we need to change the active "lead into" to something less offensive. However, Luke and Matthew have πειρασμον = "putting to the proof/trial, adversity," and the sub-definition of "temptation" with that meaning is obsolete - so a change from "lead us not into temptation" to "do not put us to the test," or similar, would be appropriate.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    John Dominic Crossan (admittedly nobody's idea of a devout Christian) argues it does teach that God tempts us, so I can understand a desire to avoid that particular wording.
    James 1:13
    When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

  12. #20
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    James 1:13
    When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
    Yeah, that gets into the whole "tempting vs testing" thing.
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