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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Changing the Lord's Prayer

    Now that the pope has changed the Lord's Prayer, John Piper weighs in. The change in question is changing "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us fall into temptation" (in Mt. 6:13).

    Source: John Piper

    My point here is not whether God “leads us into temptation.” My point is: We should learn whether he does or not from Scripture, not from our prior notions of what good fathers do.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Piper then goes on to point out that the Spirit led Jesus himself into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Mt. 4:1).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!


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    tWebber
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    I believe no change has occurred in English. This was an adjustment to the Italian liturgical translation of the prayer. Many do expect a similar change to occur in English, but it hasn't happened yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!
    It's a change of translation; it's no more "changing" what Christ said than one Bible translation using a different phrasing than a previous one is "changing" the words of Christ.

    Now if someone wants to argue it's not a good translation, that could be a valid position. But it's silly to equate a change in translation to "changing" the words of Christ when every translation is inherently doing that.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Now if someone wants to argue it's not a good translation, that could be a valid position.
    Indeed, John Piper is arguing that the change is incorrect, and for the wrong reason.

    But it's silly to equate a change in translation to "changing" the words of Christ when every translation is inherently doing that.
    Well, this is a substantial change, which changes the meaning of the phrase. So I could see why mossrose is saying Christ's words have been changed.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Indeed, John Piper is arguing that the change is incorrect, and for the wrong reason.


    Well, this is a substantial change, which changes the meaning of the phrase. So I could see why mossrose is saying Christ's words have been changed.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    STM mossy is right on this, and that the Pope is missing the point of those words pretty badly :( The change, alters the theology of the LP significantly, and therefore changes the theology of St Matthew significantly. It is a distortion of Scripture, which is absolutely not tolerable - regardless of who in the Church makes the change, or why. There is no adequate reason for this change, end of story.

    The suggested change to the Italian text of the Gloria, from St Luke 2.14, is no better: https://www.ucatholic.com/news/pope-...talian-missal/

  7. Amen tabibito amen'd this post.
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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    STM mossy is right on this, and that the Pope is missing the point of those words pretty badly :( The change, alters the theology of the LP significantly, and therefore changes the theology of St Matthew significantly. It is a distortion of Scripture, which is absolutely not tolerable - regardless of who in the Church makes the change, or why. There is no adequate reason for this change, end of story.

    The suggested change to the Italian text of the Gloria, from St Luke 2.14, is no better: https://www.ucatholic.com/news/pope-...talian-missal/
    Peace on Earth to those beloved of God?

    The changes to the Italian Missal was a 16 year undertaking with aims to “contribute to the renewal of the ecclesial community in the wake of the liturgical reform.”

    “Bishops and experts worked on improving the text from a theological, pastoral and stylistic point of view, as well as on fine-tuning the presentation of the Missal.”


    Altering the translation to something that doesn't conform with the original texts = improvement ...
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-29-2019 at 07:37 PM.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    STM mossy is right on this, and that the Pope is missing the point of those words pretty badly :( The change, alters the theology of the LP significantly, and therefore changes the theology of St Matthew significantly. It is a distortion of Scripture, which is absolutely not tolerable - regardless of who in the Church makes the change, or why. There is no adequate reason for this change, end of story.
    It's my understanding that for a long time this has been how it's been rendered in some other languages.

    Even if someone thinks it's an inferior translation, I don't see how it's a "distortion."

    The suggested change to the Italian text of the Gloria, from St Luke 2.14, is no better: https://www.ucatholic.com/news/pope-...talian-missal/
    In what way is it "no better"? The suggested change is how virtually all modern Bible translations render the verse (not necessarily that exact phrasing, but the general meaning). The question of "people beloved by God" vs. "people of good will" is a question of textual variety rather than translation.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!
    Well then he needs to be quoting Christ in Aramaic, right?

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Well then he needs to be quoting Christ in Aramaic, right?
    Come on, you know that Jesus spoke perfect English with a British accent -- I've heard the Dead Sea Cassette Tapes that were discovered in the caves.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Come on, you know that Jesus spoke perfect English with a British accent -- I've heard the Dead Sea Cassette Tapes that were discovered in the caves.
    I saw The Passion of the Christ and he spoke Aramaic!

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