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Thread: Changing the Lord's Prayer

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Changing the Lord's Prayer

    Now that the pope has changed the Lord's Prayer, John Piper weighs in. The change in question is changing "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us fall into temptation" (in Mt. 6:13).

    Source: John Piper

    My point here is not whether God “leads us into temptation.” My point is: We should learn whether he does or not from Scripture, not from our prior notions of what good fathers do.

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    © Copyright Original Source



    Piper then goes on to point out that the Spirit led Jesus himself into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil (Mt. 4:1).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!


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    tWebber
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    I believe no change has occurred in English. This was an adjustment to the Italian liturgical translation of the prayer. Many do expect a similar change to occur in English, but it hasn't happened yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!
    It's a change of translation; it's no more "changing" what Christ said than one Bible translation using a different phrasing than a previous one is "changing" the words of Christ.

    Now if someone wants to argue it's not a good translation, that could be a valid position. But it's silly to equate a change in translation to "changing" the words of Christ when every translation is inherently doing that.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Now if someone wants to argue it's not a good translation, that could be a valid position.
    Indeed, John Piper is arguing that the change is incorrect, and for the wrong reason.

    But it's silly to equate a change in translation to "changing" the words of Christ when every translation is inherently doing that.
    Well, this is a substantial change, which changes the meaning of the phrase. So I could see why mossrose is saying Christ's words have been changed.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    I still think that John 17 is "the Lord's Prayer", and the one that we call "the Lord's Prayer" is more aptly named "the model prayer".
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    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    In his Kingdom New Testament, N.T. Wright renders it, "Don't bring us into the great trial..."

    Keener's notes in the IVP Bible Background Commentary say this:

    "Parallels with ancient Jewish prayers, and possibly the Aramaic wording behind this verse, suggest that the first line means: 'Let us not sin when we are tested'—rather than 'Let us not be tested' (cf. 4:1; 26:41 in context; cf. Ps 141:3–4). Some scholars have suggested an allusion to the final time of suffering here, which was expected to precede the coming kingdom. Because Jewish prayers were commonly used in liturgical contexts that ended with a statement of praise, later texts’ addition of the benediction ('Thine is the kingdom … ') to the original text of Matthew is not surprising."
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Who dares change the words of Christ?

    No man. Regardless of how highly he thinks of himself, the pope does not have the authority to change anything that Christ has said!
    Well then he needs to be quoting Christ in Aramaic, right?

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Well then he needs to be quoting Christ in Aramaic, right?
    Come on, you know that Jesus spoke perfect English with a British accent -- I've heard the Dead Sea Cassette Tapes that were discovered in the caves.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Come on, you know that Jesus spoke perfect English with a British accent -- I've heard the Dead Sea Cassette Tapes that were discovered in the caves.
    I saw The Passion of the Christ and he spoke Aramaic!

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I still think that John 17 is "the Lord's Prayer", and the one that we call "the Lord's Prayer" is more aptly named "the model prayer".
    I think this is mostly an English issue; AFAIR the traditional liturgical languages tend to refer to it as the "Our Father".

    In the English Orthodox tradition, the argument is over the translation of the next line; is it "but deliver us from evil" or "but deliver us from the evil one"?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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