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Thread: Changing the Lord's Prayer

  1. #31
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    πειραζω πειρασμος

    Either James is referring to temptations of a particular class and not all classes of temptation, or James' comment (about God neither being tempted nor tempting) conflicts with Matthew's record of the Lord's Prayer. Given that James specifies temptation to do evil as the context for the temptation he refers to, I find no conflict.
    If we continue reading verses 14-15 in James we see the following (not sure if v. 15 will be relevant to the discussion or not, but I included it just in case):

    Scripture Verse: James 1:13-14 ESV


    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now I could be wrong about this, but I'm thinking Jesus in the Lord's Prayer is teaching us to pray for God to save us from situations where our own desires become to strong for us, and we succumb to sin, while James on the other hand is saying that God isn't the reason we fall into temptation, or feel tempted, but that it's our own desires that are responsible.

    So I don't think there's a conflict here, even if we understand both passages to talk about temptation to do evil/sin. One (the LP) is talking about being led into situations where we are tempted (perhaps beyond our capabilities?), while the other (James) is talking about the reason why we feel tempted in the first place.

  2. #32
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    If we continue reading verses 14-15 in James we see the following (not sure if v. 15 will be relevant to the discussion or not, but I included it just in case):

    Scripture Verse: James 1:13-14 ESV


    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now I could be wrong about this, but I'm thinking Jesus in the Lord's Prayer is teaching us to pray for God to save us from situations where our own desires become to strong for us, and we succumb to sin, while James on the other hand is saying that God isn't the reason we fall into temptation, or feel tempted, but that it's our own desires that are responsible.

    So I don't think there's a conflict here, even if we understand both passages to talk about temptation to do evil/sin. One (the LP) is talking about being led into situations where we are tempted (perhaps beyond our capabilities?), while the other (James) is talking about the reason why we feel tempted in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito
    πειραζω πειρασμος

    Either James is referring to temptations of a particular class and not all classes of temptation, or James' comment (about God neither being tempted nor tempting) conflicts with Matthew's record of the Lord's Prayer. Given that James specifies temptation to do evil as the context for the temptation he refers to, I find no conflict.
    And yes - James is saying, "Don't blame God when you're tempted to do evil, you're the one at fault." The Koine Greek words for temptation and tempt cover a wider range than does temptation in English - and a close attention to context is needed to determine whether "temptation" or "trial/test" is the appropriate rendering. James is not saying that God doesn't put people to the test.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  3. #33
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Ah - I kind of missed the point there. So ...

    The problem arises with the whole "Lead us not into temptation" bit, by contrast with "Let us not be led into temptation."
    εισενεγκης is (aorist active subjunctive)

    μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον (Luke)
    μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον (Matthew)

    πειρασμος has two distinct meanings: citing BDAG
    an attempt to learn the nature or character of someth., test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7)
    πρὸς πειρασμόν to test you 1 Pt 4:12.
    διὰ πειρασμόν τινα because you are being tried in some way Hm 9:7. Perh. Js 1:2 and 1 Pt 1:6 belong here
    (cp. Pind., O. 4, 22 διά πειρά τοι βροτῶν ἔλεγχο=trial is the test of mortals; sim. N. 3, 70f).
    Here also belongs the testing (s. πειράζω 2c) of God by humans (cp. Dt 6:16; 9:22)
    Hb 3:8 where vs. 9 shows that it is God who is being tested, and not the Israelites (Ps 94:8f).
    an attempt to make one do someth. wrong, temptation, enticement to sin.

    Commentaries (that I have seen) have focussed on either the fact that "lead" is active, which means that God does it

    or
    to a much lesser extent, the very different subdefinitions as putting to the trial, and enticement.

    However ... checking the passage itself, rather than relying on third party information ... WHOA

    πειρασμον is NOT dative, it's accusative. No doubt there will be argument to the effect that
    the presence of an accusative preposition makes a difference, so I'll have to do some checking,
    but right now it seems that "us in temptation" might just be a single direct object.

    So, two problems to resolve ... subjunctive (not imperative), connected accusative

    BBL
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-16-2019 at 01:18 PM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  4. #34
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Agreed, God does not tempt anyone, but he did lead Jesus into temptation.


    Well, what about David?

    "Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sa 24:1)

    Though Satan was the direct instrument of temptation (see 1 Chr. 21:1), the Lord did lead David into temptation.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    No. The holy spirit led him into the desert.

    How was what David did, temptation?

  5. #35
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    There is an interesting collection of words used to translate "πειραζω." BDAG provides a list of verses, partial herewith, that need to be taken into consideration.
    Mt 16:1; 19:3; 22:18, 35; Mk 8:11; 10:2; 12:15; Lk 11:16; 20:23 v.l.; J 8:6.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  6. #36
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    No. The holy spirit led him into the desert.
    But the Holy Spirit is God.

    How was what David did, temptation?
    He was tempted by the devil (1 Chr. 21:1) to number Israel, at the incitement of the (anger of the) Lord (2 Sam. 24:1)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #37
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But the Holy Spirit is God.
    But he didn't lead him into temptation. He led him into the desert.

    He was tempted by the devil (1 Chr. 21:1) to number Israel, at the incitement of the (anger of the) Lord (2 Sam. 24:1)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    it said "incited" not "tempted"

  8. #38
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But he didn't lead him into temptation. He led him into the desert.
    Yup....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Jesus was led by the Spirit "into the wilderness", not "into temptation" --- to be tempted by the Devil. So, only kinda sorta.
    Just like God had to ALLOW the Devil to mess with Job...
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  9. #39
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But he didn't lead him into temptation. He led him into the desert.
    "To be tempted" was the reason he was led into the desert, though.

    it said "incited" not "tempted"
    Yes, well, the idea of tempting by the devil is there in the word "moved": "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel." (1 Chr. 21:1)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #40
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Just like God had to ALLOW the Devil to mess with Job...
    And God was behind it all, "have you considered my servant Job?" (Job 1:8), knowing that the devil would then test Job.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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