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Thread: Changing the Lord's Prayer

  1. #41
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    And God was behind it all, "have you considered my servant Job?" (Job 1:8), knowing that the devil would then test Job.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Sure, but within the limits that God set.... 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” And it was Satan who did the tempting/testing, not God.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Sure, but within the limits that God set.... 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” And it was Satan who did the tempting/testing, not God.
    Yes, agreed, yet Job was led by God (ultimately), into temptation / testing. What we would pray for then is to seek and find God, to be refined in his presence, and not through trial and temptation.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #43
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "To be tempted" was the reason he was led into the desert, though.
    If I drive you to the bank and you get mugged while you were there did I mug you? The devil did the tempting not the holy spirit.

    Yes, well, the idea of tempting by the devil is there in the word "moved": "Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel." (1 Chr. 21:1)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    uh, no. it said "incited" him. "moved" doesn't mean "tempted" it means that he was "incited"

  4. #44
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, agreed, yet Job was led by God (ultimately),
    Nothing happens that God does not allow.

    into temptation / testing.
    From God's perspective, I think it was more like "proving".

    What we would pray for then is to seek and find God,
    Found Him!

    to be refined in his presence,
    It's a process.

    and not through trial and temptation.
    Which is why I think we should pray the only thing we were actually commanded to pray --- to ask for Wisdom.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You ARE a blessing, Lee.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

  5. #45
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    If I drive you to the bank and you get mugged while you were there did I mug you?
    If you knew I would be mugged if you drove me to the bank, you could say that you led me into being mugged.

    The devil did the tempting not the holy spirit.
    Yes, agreed.

    uh, no. it said "incited" him. "moved" doesn't mean "tempted" it means that he was "incited"
    "Moved" would involve some drawing, though, would it not? And thus some temptation.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Nothing happens that God does not allow.
    Yes, for his own good purposes.

    From God's perspective, I think it was more like "proving".
    True, though Job was tested, was he not?

    "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." (Job 23:10)

    It's a process.
    Yes. I was thinking about this, and "but deliver us from evil" might mean deliver us from evil in our own hearts. Rather than giving us trials of temptation.

    Which is why I think we should pray the only thing we were actually commanded to pray --- to ask for Wisdom.
    "The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." (Pr 4:7)

    You ARE a blessing, Lee.
    You too, Cow Poke!

    Blessing and grace,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #47
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    If you knew I would be mugged if you drove me to the bank, you could say that you led me into being mugged.
    God knows everything, being God. So does that make him responsible for everything anyone does?

    "Moved" would involve some drawing, though, would it not? And thus some temptation.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Not necessarily. The word translated as "moved" in your version is translated as "incited" in others. If you incite a riot, are you "tempting" people to riot? Tempting usually means enticing someone with something desirable. Like in the desert, Satan tempted Jesus with ruling the kingdoms of the world if he would just bow down to him. Inciting just means just convincing someone to do something. It could be out of desire, or out of fear, or some other motivation. In this case it was probably a case of paranoia and lack of trust in God that Satan used to entice David to count the troops.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    I don't really see this as a big issue, because I'm not one to recite the "Lord's Prayer" just to recite it. I've always just prayed from my heart, and, as I said before, I think this is a "model prayer", not something to be repeated frequently verbatim, so I'll bow out.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    God knows everything, being God. So does that make him responsible for everything anyone does?
    No, knowing about something doesn't make you responsible.

    The word translated as "moved" in your version is translated as "incited" in others. If you incite a riot, are you "tempting" people to riot?
    Well, maybe, the words would seem to have some overlap.

    Dictionary.com: incite - to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #50
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I've always just prayed from my heart, and, as I said before, I think this is a "model prayer", not something to be repeated frequently verbatim, so I'll bow out.
    Good point, there are even two versions of this prayer in Matthew versus Luke, so no, it doesn't seem to be intended to be repeated often verbatim.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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