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Changing the Lord's Prayer

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  • #16
    John Dominic Crossan (admittedly nobody's idea of a devout Christian) argues it does teach that God tempts us, so I can understand a desire to avoid that particular wording.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

      Have it your own way, guys.
      Nobody is saying that...
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Then I guess I should have said that anybody can change whatever they want to and just call it a new translation and it's all good.

        Have it your own way, guys.
        I'm sure that if I looked through all the versions of the Bible, I would find at least one rendering it as "save us from temptation" or similar. The Lord's prayer is worded to that effect in the Anglican rite - so it exists in a Bible, or "Bible" at least, somewhere. It seems that we need to change the active "lead into" to something less offensive. However, Luke and Matthew have πειρασμον = "putting to the proof/trial, adversity," and the sub-definition of "temptation" with that meaning is obsolete - so a change from "lead us not into temptation" to "do not put us to the test," or similar, would be appropriate.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          John Dominic Crossan (admittedly nobody's idea of a devout Christian) argues it does teach that God tempts us, so I can understand a desire to avoid that particular wording.
          James 1:13
          When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            James 1:13
            When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
            Yeah, that gets into the whole "tempting vs testing" thing.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I don't really see a problem in what the pope changed. The meaning is the same. It is obvious that God doesn't lead us into temptation.
              Yet the Spirit led Jesus into temptation (Mt. 4:1).

              He is not the source of temptation, nor does he want us to fall into it, or give into it.
              Quite true.

              So the meaning of the verse is clearly not to let temptation gain control over us, to give us the strength to resist it.
              No, the statement is clearly "lead us not into temptation", see John Piper's analysis, and most Bible translations.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                Yet the Spirit led Jesus into temptation (Mt. 4:1).
                He was led into the desert to be tempted By the devil. The Holy Spirit did not tempt him.

                4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

                The spirit just led him into the desert. Not to mention this was a special case. Jesus IS God. and this was necessary for his mission.





                No, the statement is clearly "lead us not into temptation", see John Piper's analysis, and most Bible translations.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Well then it is a useless plea, since God doens't lead anyone into Temptation. Might as well say "Father, don't lie to us"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  He was led into the desert to be tempted By the devil. The Holy Spirit did not tempt him.
                  Agreed, God does not tempt anyone, but he did lead Jesus into temptation.

                  Not to mention this was a special case. Jesus IS God. and this was necessary for his mission.
                  Well, what about David?

                  "Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sa 24:1)

                  Though Satan was the direct instrument of temptation (see 1 Chr. 21:1), the Lord did lead David into temptation.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Agreed, God does not tempt anyone, but he did lead Jesus into temptation.
                    Lee
                    Jesus was led by the Spirit "into the wilderness", not "into temptation" --- to be tempted by the Devil. So, only kinda sorta.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Jesus was led by the Spirit "into the wilderness", not "into temptation" --- to be tempted by the Devil. So, only kinda sorta.
                      That seems to be splitting hairs. Either the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness *for the purpose* of being tempted/tested, or He led Him into the wilderness and somehow did not know what would happen there.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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                      • #26
                        There's also 1 Sam. 16:14, 16 and 19:9, all of which refer to "an evil spirit from the LORD" or "an evil spirit from God."
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          That seems to be splitting hairs.
                          So, take it up with the Holy Spirit.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #28
                            πειραζω πειρασμος

                            Either James is referring to temptations of a particular class and not all classes of temptation, or James' comment (about God neither being tempted nor tempting) conflicts with Matthew's record of the Lord's Prayer. Given that James specifies temptation to do evil as the context for the temptation he refers to, I find no conflict.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 06-15-2019, 01:03 PM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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                            • #29
                              I think there is also the issue with the difference between being tempted and tested. The KJV seems render the words tempted and tested interchangeably. So for some this may seem to cause difficulty.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
                                I think there is also the issue with the difference between being tempted and tested. The KJV seems render the words tempted and tested interchangeably. So for some this may seem to cause difficulty.
                                That might be because the Koine Greek uses the same word for both concepts, which then forces translators to examine context for the best fit.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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