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Changing the Lord's Prayer

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Nothing happens that God does not allow.
    Yes, for his own good purposes.

    From God's perspective, I think it was more like "proving".
    True, though Job was tested, was he not?

    "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." (Job 23:10)

    It's a process.
    Yes. I was thinking about this, and "but deliver us from evil" might mean deliver us from evil in our own hearts. Rather than giving us trials of temptation.

    Which is why I think we should pray the only thing we were actually commanded to pray --- to ask for Wisdom.
    "The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." (Pr 4:7)

    You ARE a blessing, Lee.
    You too, Cow Poke!

    Blessing and grace,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    • #47
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      If you knew I would be mugged if you drove me to the bank, you could say that you led me into being mugged.
      God knows everything, being God. So does that make him responsible for everything anyone does?

      "Moved" would involve some drawing, though, would it not? And thus some temptation.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Not necessarily. The word translated as "moved" in your version is translated as "incited" in others. If you incite a riot, are you "tempting" people to riot? Tempting usually means enticing someone with something desirable. Like in the desert, Satan tempted Jesus with ruling the kingdoms of the world if he would just bow down to him. Inciting just means just convincing someone to do something. It could be out of desire, or out of fear, or some other motivation. In this case it was probably a case of paranoia and lack of trust in God that Satan used to entice David to count the troops.

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      • #48
        I don't really see this as a big issue, because I'm not one to recite the "Lord's Prayer" just to recite it. I've always just prayed from my heart, and, as I said before, I think this is a "model prayer", not something to be repeated frequently verbatim, so I'll bow out.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          God knows everything, being God. So does that make him responsible for everything anyone does?
          No, knowing about something doesn't make you responsible.

          The word translated as "moved" in your version is translated as "incited" in others. If you incite a riot, are you "tempting" people to riot?
          Well, maybe, the words would seem to have some overlap.

          Dictionary.com: incite - to stir, encourage, or urge on; stimulate or prompt to action.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I've always just prayed from my heart, and, as I said before, I think this is a "model prayer", not something to be repeated frequently verbatim, so I'll bow out.
            Good point, there are even two versions of this prayer in Matthew versus Luke, so no, it doesn't seem to be intended to be repeated often verbatim.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #51
              [QUOTE=lee_merrill;644088]No, knowing about something doesn't make you responsible.[./quote] but you said, "If you knew I would be mugged if you drove me to the bank, you could say that you led me into being mugged."

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I don't really see this as a big issue, because I'm not one to recite the "Lord's Prayer" just to recite it. I've always just prayed from my heart, and, as I said before, I think this is a "model prayer", not something to be repeated frequently verbatim, so I'll bow out.
                IMO, the Lord's Prayer is especially not one to be recited unthinkingly. People like to be forgiven, but plenty of people are condemning themselves because of the caveat that comes with in the prayer.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  IMO, the Lord's Prayer is especially not one to be recited unthinkingly. People like to be forgiven, but plenty of people are condemning themselves because of the caveat that comes with in the prayer.
                  Agreed - and for the same reason.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    No, knowing about something doesn't make you responsible.
                    but you said, "If you knew I would be mugged if you drove me to the bank, you could say that you led me into being mugged."
                    Just knowing about something doesn't make your responsible, but knowing the results of your actions does involve responsibility.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Just knowing about something doesn't make your responsible, but knowing the results of your actions does involve responsibility.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      If I drove you to the bank, that doesn't mean I mugged you.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        If I drove you to the bank, that doesn't mean I mugged you.
                        But if you drove me to the bank, knowing I would be mugged there, then you would be leading me into being mugged.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          But if you drove me to the bank, knowing I would be mugged there, then you would be leading me into being mugged.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          If you insisted on going to the bank, I am only doing what you want. This is getting to be a bad analogy. The holy spirit will not lead you into sin. In fact if you listen to him, he will keep you from sin, as he speaks to your conscience and lets you know it is wrong. Then if you go ahead despite that, it is your own doing, not God's

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            If you insisted on going to the bank, I am only doing what you want. This is getting to be a bad analogy. The holy spirit will not lead you into sin. In fact if you listen to him, he will keep you from sin, as he speaks to your conscience and lets you know it is wrong. Then if you go ahead despite that, it is your own doing, not God's
                            My Jewish friend who did the Seder at our Church earlier this month put it like this... (and this is obviously a flawed analogy, as well)

                            When we take missiles to the "proving grounds", it's not so much to "test" them as to prove their worth to the military so they will be purchased and implemented. They had already been tested prior to that. God knew that Jesus would pass the test - He was led by the Spirit to the "proving ground" with every confidence of God that He would pass.

                            It would be more akin (in your mugging analogy) to say, for example....

                            "I'm driving Chuck Norris to the bank where a small gang of thugs is waiting for him".
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              The holy spirit will not lead you into sin.
                              But he may lead us into temptation, as he led Jesus into temptation.

                              In fact if you listen to him, he will keep you from sin, as he speaks to your conscience and lets you know it is wrong. Then if you go ahead despite that, it is your own doing, not God's
                              Yes, though I believe that we have to go through a process of purification, which may be done in the Lord's presence ("deliver us from evil") or through trial and temptation.

                              "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." (Job 23:10)

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                But he may lead us into temptation, as he led Jesus into temptation.
                                no. And Jesus is God so there's that. Even if you believe that he was led into temptation, it was a special event planned from the beginning of the world and needed to be done to fulfill God's plan. It is not a model for what God does with us.

                                Yes, though I believe that we have to go through a process of purification, which may be done in the Lord's presence ("deliver us from evil") or through trial and temptation.

                                "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." (Job 23:10)

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Testing is not the same as Temptation.

                                Comment

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