Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

And can you still support him?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What I said:

    "Funny how nobody claiming that [Trump broke the law] has been able to cite the actual legal statute that was violated."

    What Ignorant Roy cited:

    A legal statute that wasn't actually violated.

    Yep, he sure showed me.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Zara View Post
      I am more concerned about people that say they know a about God, but live a life that is empty of its spirit. Then, because they believe, they somehow get a free pass at the end - I don't think so, frankly.

      Exploiting others for your own gain, is the central issue. Treating the world as something to exploit and destroy for your own personal gain, is the issue. These are things Trump and his corporate cronies value - if you support him, you're in the same boat. The same, sinking one.
      Although I'm not going to get into trying to play God and figure out who is and who is not going to be saved in the end, There is a subtlety to the Christian Theology of Grace that in protestant churches tends to get missed or perhaps is just uncomfortable. The Christian Theology is that our salvation is by Grace - it is not earned. That is - we can't do things to earn favor with God. That is one side of it. And it is a very good side indeed because most of us can't possibly measure up to what would be truly good. And indeed, the Bible makes clear that when we concern ourselves with issues of 'being good', the focus needs to be more inward than running around trying to make sure the other fellow is getting it right.

      But then there is the book of James. And James says something that seems the total opposite:

      Source: James 2:14-26

      What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

      18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?

      © Copyright Original Source



      And Paul elsewhere when speaking of those that distort his teaching asks if Grace is then a license to sin - and his answer is "of course not, may it never be".

      Sometimes in US Protestant Christianity the focus becomes so much on faith (and in reform circles predestination) that the warning of James is completely lost.

      And notice how he words it: these guys think they have all sorts of faith, they see the fellow suffering and they pronounce a blessing, perhaps thinking their great faith will make it so. And yet, they do nothing to help. And in that doing nothing, they demonstrate no real faith at all. If we can turn a blind eye, say to the suffering on the border, or to the rise in racist hatred ... are we far from being one of those described in James?


      It is not that works (doing good things) saves us, or that by doing good deeds a person can undo the need for Christ's work on the Cross. It is that a person that has Truly been changed by the work of Christ on the Cross simply cannot remain a hard hearted person full of sin or loathing for their fellow man. And if they do remain that way, impervious to calls for compassion or repentance, that is good evidence they are just saying the words, there is no real change, no real salvation. Faith without works is dead. In other words, it really isn't faith.


      Jim
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-24-2019, 04:21 PM.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        James says something that seems the total opposite...
        No he doesn't. Paul and James are saying exactly the same thing: salvation is by faith through grace, and works are simply a manifestation of that faith. James uses works as a test: if you have no works then you probably don't have faith; however, he is not saying that works are necessary for salvation. Paul makes this clear when he says that when a person's works are tested by fire at the final judgement and all are consumed, the person will still be saved but as one who has escaped through the flames. All that's required for salvation is to believe and confess that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. That's it.

        As far as politics are concerned, I think who we vote for is not something God cares a great deal about provided we do so in good faith. Look at Jesus' example: when asked if he should pay taxes, he didn't denounce the Roman empire and its ruler, or tell people that they would be judged by who they politically support. On the contrary, the Bible tells us to pray for those in authority that they will do God's will, and that we might live quiet and peaceful lives as a result.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • The interesting fact to remember is that Trump is the only one willing to address issues of migration and the border and the safety of our country. Congress has failed to take any action. Congress is able to promote laws to resolve issues. What laws have they promoted?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Although I'm not going to get into trying to play God and figure out who is and who is not going to be saved in the end, There is a subtlety to the Christian Theology of Grace that in protestant churches tends to get missed or perhaps is just uncomfortable. The Christian Theology is that our salvation is by Grace - it is not earned. That is - we can't do things to earn favor with God. That is one side of it. And it is a very good side indeed because most of us can't possibly measure up to what would be truly good. And indeed, the Bible makes clear that when we concern ourselves with issues of 'being good', the focus needs to be more inward than running around trying to make sure the other fellow is getting it right.

            But then there is the book of James. And James says something that seems the total opposite:

            Source: James 2:14-26

            What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

            18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead?

            © Copyright Original Source



            And Paul elsewhere when speaking of those that distort his teaching asks if Grace is then a license to sin - and his answer is "of course not, may it never be".

            Sometimes in US Protestant Christianity the focus becomes so much on faith (and in reform circles predestination) that the warning of James is completely lost.

            And notice how he words it: these guys think they have all sorts of faith, they see the fellow suffering and they pronounce a blessing, perhaps thinking their great faith will make it so. And yet, they do nothing to help. And in that doing nothing, they demonstrate no real faith at all. If we can turn a blind eye, say to the suffering on the border, or to the rise in racist hatred ... are we far from being one of those described in James?


            It is not that works (doing good things) saves us, or that by doing good deeds a person can undo the need for Christ's work on the Cross. It is that a person that has Truly been changed by the work of Christ on the Cross simply cannot remain a hard hearted person full of sin or loathing for their fellow man. And if they do remain that way, impervious to calls for compassion or repentance, that is good evidence they are just saying the words, there is no real change, no real salvation. Faith without works is dead. In other words, it really isn't faith.


            Jim
            Unfortunately, many christians, like so many here on tweb, separate their own personal behavior as individuals from the behavior of the government they choose to live under. For example, they may not treat an immigrant, a poor man, woman, or a sick person, inhumanely, but then they turn around and support and defend a government that does so. Such christianity isn't altruistic, it isn't about god, or doing right because they believe it's right, it's all about what they think they'll get out of it. In my humble opinion, of course!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Unfortunately, many christians, like so many here on tweb, separate their own personal behavior as individuals from the behavior of the government they choose to live under. For example, they may not treat an immigrant, a poor man, woman, or a sick person, inhumanely, but then they turn around and support and defend a government that does so. Such christianity isn't altruistic, it isn't about god, or doing right because they believe it's right, it's all about what they think they'll get out of it. In my humble opinion, of course!
              I know. There are so many Christians who are seeking after freebies from the government and promoting endless bureaucracies. It is this ignorance which then prefers a communist form of government while giving up all freedom -- all for a few freebies. Why is this allowed to happen?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                No he doesn't. Paul and James are saying exactly the same thing: salvation is by faith through grace, and works are simply a manifestation of that faith. James uses works as a test: if you have no works then you probably don't have faith; however, he is not saying that works are necessary for salvation. Paul makes this clear when he says that when a person's works are tested by fire at the final judgement and all are consumed, the person will still be saved but as one who has escaped through the flames. All that's required for salvation is to believe and confess that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. That's it.
                Romans 10:9 could be wrested to make it seem that faith is the sole requirement, but for Romans 10:10, which shows that confession is required, and in the process showing that faith is not the sole requirement. James indeed does not contradict Paul's claims, he contradicts misrepresentations of Paul's claims.
                1/ It is not possible to CONFESS a belief that does not exist. Confession, by contrast with a mere claim, means that it is true (specifically; that Christ is Lord).
                2/ The idea that it is possible to believe in someone, without believing that his words are true, is ludicrous.
                3/ Jesus said that works are necessary. (refer to point 2)
                4/ Paul preached that people were to repent and produce works in keeping with repentance. (as also reported by Luke)
                5/ Lack of works (according to Christ) shows that Christ is not the person's Lord. (back to point 1: For that person, the claim that "Christ is Lord" is false.)
                6/ Faith may allow mighty works to be performed in the name of Christ, even when Christ is not Lord of the person through whom mighty works are performed. (as attested by Jesus.)
                7/ Faith is said to be necessary for justification, which is necessary to, but not the sole facet of, salvation. I'm not sure that the Bible says anywhere that we are saved by faith.

                Faith is as necessary to salvation as petrol is to a car - without petrol in its tank, the car will take you no-where. But faith is no more than the fuel. Without oil in the sump, the car will also take you no-where.
                Last edited by tabibito; 06-24-2019, 06:48 PM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  I know. There are so many Christians who are seeking after freebies from the government and promoting endless bureaucracies. It is this ignorance which then prefers a communist form of government while giving up all freedom -- all for a few freebies. Why is this allowed to happen?
                  That's a canard. It's not about wanting freebies from the government, it's about wanting and supporting a government that cares for people the way that christians say they care about people, people that they say they believe to be creatures of god. It's not enough to do good works that self satisfy if you then turn around and support a government that wants to take health care away from 20 million people, that wants to put an end to social programs that help many people, that denies and ignores climate change which hurts future generations, that wants to wall off immigrant families trying to escape the desperate circumstances they find
                  themselves in etc. etc. etc.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    3/ Jesus said that works are necessary. (refer to point 2)
                    4/ Paul preached that people were to repent and produce works in keeping with repentance. (as also reported by Luke)
                    5/ Lack of works (according to Christ) shows that Christ is not the person's Lord. (back to point 1: For that person, the claim that "Christ is Lord" is false.)
                    The problem with this line of reasoning is that the thief on the cross next to Jesus did not have any time to perform works, and yet Jesus promised him salvation.

                    And Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians:

                    "...each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

                    I'm not saying that we shouldn't do good works -- certainly we should, and we will be rewarded for them -- but they are not necessary for salvation.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      The problem with this line of reasoning is that the thief on the cross next to Jesus did not have any time to perform works, and yet Jesus promised him salvation.

                      And Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians:

                      "...each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

                      I'm not saying that we shouldn't do good works -- certainly we should, and we will be rewarded for them -- but they are not necessary for salvation.
                      What are you talking about, the thief had his whole life to perform works.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        So you are saying that the law was meant to prevent true statements about political opponents from being shared by foreign nationals?

                        And you are saying that the law, although written about things of reasonably discerned monetary value, was really directed against sharing knowledge with a political candidate?

                        Did you know that the first method of interpretation of a law is based on the wording of the law, not what the legislators intended? Then, the intent (as documented in the debates and circumstances leading to the law) is applied, only to clarify the scope of the law and ambiguous wording. So where is the wording found which shows that revelation about truths of opponents is illegal when shared by foreign nationals?
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        What are you talking about, the thief had his whole life to perform works.
                        Works are neither necessary nor required, but a person who refuses to do them is not saved.

                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Works are neither necessary nor required, but a person who refuses to do them is not saved.

                          Jim
                          I'm not a believer Jim, so I can't argue the point of "is or isn't" necessary, but it seems to me that logic would require one to do good works if they do believe, otherwise their belief would be a dead belief.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            So you are saying that the law was meant to prevent true statements about political opponents from being shared by foreign nationals?

                            And you are saying that the law, although written about things of reasonably discerned monetary value, was really directed against sharing knowledge with a political candidate?

                            Did you know that the first method of interpretation of a law is based on the wording of the law, not what the legislators intended? Then, the intent (as documented in the debates and circumstances leading to the law) is applied, only to clarify the scope of the law and ambiguous wording. So where is the wording found which shows that revelation about truths of opponents is illegal when shared by foreign nationals?
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            What are you talking about, the thief had his whole life to perform works.
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            I'm not a believer Jim, so I can't argue the point of "is or isn't" necessary, but it seems to me that logic would require one to do good works if they do believe, otherwise their belief would be a dead belief.
                            That would be the point.
                            .jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              The problem with this line of reasoning is that the thief on the cross next to Jesus did not have any time to perform works, and yet Jesus promised him salvation.

                              And Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians:

                              "...each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

                              I'm not saying that we shouldn't do good works -- certainly we should, and we will be rewarded for them -- but they are not necessary for salvation.
                              The thief did as many works as he had opportunity to do in the circumstaces - he confessed Christ.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                                What are you talking about, the thief had his whole life to perform works.
                                You mean the few hours he had left on the cross? Or are you suggesting that prior good works are retroactively counted as acts of faith despite there being not a single passage of scripture to support this?

                                And what to make of Paul who wrote in 1 Corinthians that even if none of a person's works pass the final test, he will still be saved?
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                7 responses
                                66 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                42 responses
                                252 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                108 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                194 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                73 responses
                                338 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X