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"Virgin Birth" Questions

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  • Originally posted by mitzi
    I'm not saying that the passage in Luke is or isn't correct - but perhaps, not to underestimate the "growing in wisdom and understanding".
    In addition to John 1, it is necessary to examine - word by word - very carefully - Philippians 2:6 and Hebrews 2:14-18 and compare the outcomes with each other. But be careful with the Bible versions you use, because many translations are not faithful to the Koine texts.

    I think, perhaps, that you have not stopped up your ears.

    10429376_4357008418989_8513454811249928413_n.jpg
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
      1. Friedrich Weinreb "Innenwelt des Wortes im Neuen Testament" http://www.amazon.de/Innenwelt-Worte.../dp/3884110349 ("zachar" = male = the inner; "n'keivah" = female = the outer.)

      2. Isaac Luria http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/artic...-and-Wooly.htm (on the necessity of an animal offering).
      Es ist spannend, einmal so ganz anders in Gottes Wort einzutauchen, mehr zu erfahren als das, was die äussere Hülle eines Wortes zeigt, mehr als das, was man im Wörterbuch nachlesen kann.

      Interesting. Do you think that readings such as Weinreb's are spiritual odysseys into the divine depths (and heights) of the biblical text as inspired by God or that it recovers an intent of an historical author, such as the author of the gospel of Luke, or both? Or something else.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        Es ist spannend, einmal so ganz anders in Gottes Wort einzutauchen, mehr zu erfahren als das, was die äussere Hülle eines Wortes zeigt, mehr als das, was man im Wörterbuch nachlesen kann.

        Interesting. Do you think that readings such as Weinreb's are spiritual odysseys into the divine depths (and heights) of the biblical text as inspired by God or that it recovers an intent of an historical author, such as the author of the gospel of Luke, or both? Or something else.
        Weinreb opened up a door that never can be closed again.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
          Weinreb opened up a door that never can be closed again.
          But do you think that his interpretations accurately reflect the literary intent of the historical author of the gospel of Luke? Or other authors, for that matter?
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            But do you think that his interpretations accurately reflect the literary intent of the historical author of the gospel of Luke? Or other authors, for that matter?
            Not accurately.

            But one thing for sure, Luke didn't mean the virgin birth to be historical.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
              Not accurately.

              But one thing for sure, Luke didn't mean the virgin birth to be historical.
              Wouldn't it be more interesting to try and accurately understand what the historical author was actually intending to say than to study interpretations that you consider inaccurate? What is the value of an inaccurate intepretation? Is it just fun or a kind of theological fantasy voyage?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Wouldn't it be more interesting to try and accurately understand what the historical author was actually intending to say than to study interpretations that you consider inaccurate? What is the value of an inaccurate intepretation? Is it just fun or a kind of theological fantasy voyage?
                We try to.

                Comment


                • Matthew says virgin, Luke says virgin, the relevant prophecy says virgin
                  ... By the rules laid down in the Bible for determining fact, virgin.
                  Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul (and I think, Peter) say resurrection
                  ... By the rules laid down in the Bible for determining fact, resurrected.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    the relevant prophecy says virgin
                    ... .

                    Isaiah 7:14 says "almah" = young girl.

                    So maybe the newness of New Testament exactly is the virgin birth

                    After Isaiah 65:17

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      In addition to John 1, it is necessary to examine - word by word - very carefully - Philippians 2:6 and Hebrews 2:14-18 and compare the outcomes with each other. But be careful with the Bible versions you use, because many translations are not faithful to the Koine texts.

                      I think, perhaps, that you have not stopped up your ears.

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]992[/ATTACH]
                      Alright lets go one more further - In order to show the importance of a prophet, and we'll use Moses as an example, "When Moses grew to manhood he went out of the royal palace, where he had been brought up as an Egyptian prince, to see the afflictions of his Hebrew brethren toiling under the lash of the Egyptian taskmasters." or even Jeremiah -"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

                      The birth of Christ Jesus separated him from all other prophets that is his divinity - as God's son. Just like with the Levitical order of priesthood - Are Levi’im (Levites) considered Kohanim (Priests)? Both have a separateness about each - The Torah clearly says that Kohanim and Levi’im are two entirely different categories!’ And using another example and one from Esdras in a passage, "55 Say to it: You create gold, silver, bronze, iron, and also lead and clay. 56 But silver is more numerous than gold, and bronze than silver, and iron than bronze, lead than iron, and clay than lead. 57 Decide yourself then which things are precious and desirable, what is abundant or what is rare." 58 I said, "Supreme Lord, that which is abundant is cheaper, because what is more rare is valuable." Or use Hebrews for another example when Paul address this subject, "But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

                      There is a divisions, yet not...some come with importance and others with less importance but each works for the greater good.
                      Last edited by mitzi; 07-04-2014, 06:04 AM.

                      Comment


                      • German - Jungfrau - Jung=young Frau=woman: Jungfrau=maiden, that is: virgin. Almah means young woman?

                        The passage says the pregnancy is a sign from God - so context makes it clear that the argument "almah" is only a young woman is specious. Pregnant by reason of swyving is NO sign from God. No more than this fact is needed to debunk the story that the word in this verse means "virgin", but more is available anyway.
                        No more than two records of scripture are needed to establish a matter as fact - the Old Testament record isn't even a critical reference.

                        The translators of the septuagint translated "almah" as "virgin" - the LXX predates Christ by a couple of centuries ... Evidence from the Old Testament era itself shows how the Jews of that time interpreted this prophecy.

                        The story that almah means no more than "young woman" did not emerge until the third century.
                        "There is no instance where it can be proved that 'almâ designates a young woman who is not a virgin. The fact of virginity is obvious in Gen 24:43 where 'almâ is used of one who was being sought as a bride for Isaac." (R. Laird Harris, et al. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, p. 672.)
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          German - Jungfrau - Jung=young Frau=woman: Jungfrau=maiden, that is: virgin. Almah means young woman?
                          "almah" = German "mädchen" / Dutch "meisje".

                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          The passage says the pregnancy is a sign from God
                          Not so. It says: "Therefore, the Lord, He himself, shall give you a sign" -- The sign being v.16, "For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned". -



                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          The translators of the septuagint translated "almah" as "virgin" - the LXX
                          LXX translates it as παρθένος which doesn't denote per sé "virgin", but can mean "young woman" too. Besides that Hebrew has another word for virgin, viz. "b'tulah".

                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          The story that almah means no more than "young woman" did not emerge until the third century.
                          From where you got that?

                          Comment


                          • Well now, isn't that interesting: Checking Meisje for definition, it corresponds very closely with the definition of almah - girl, maiden, bride.
                            Parthenos doesn't apply to someone who is known to have been swyving. Amazingly, you knew the meaning of παρθενος meaning either girl or virgin - did you also know that it can apply to a male? Perhaps you should argue that we should be looking for a pregnant man.

                            Not so. It says: "Therefore, the Lord, He himself, shall give you a sign" -- The sign being v.16,
                            "For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned".
                            Your argument is solidly grounded in text wresting:

                            “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: BEHOLD, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good."

                            In the past 30 years, I have raised the point in debate on this issue on a number of occasions with practicing Jews. This is the first time that anyone has had the gall to so mangle the text in an attempt to avoid admitting the fact that the pregnancy is a sign from God.

                            As to my comment regarding the the third century - All attempts to discredit Christ's fulfillment of the prophecy centred on discrediting the concept that Mary was a virgin at all. First century and later, and even to this day in official documents, the pregnancy was attributed to a wrongful liaison between Mary and a Roman soldier. Even now the most authoritative references claim that to be the case. The argument that Isaiah only made reference to a young woman did not even get a mention in early references.

                            Originally posted by The Talmud
                            "It is taught that Rabbi Eliezer said to the Wise, “Did not Ben Stada bring spells from Egypt in a cut in his flesh?” They said to him, “He was a fool, and they do not bring evidence from a fool.” Ben Stada is Ben Pantera. Rabbi Hisda said, “The husband was Stada, the lover was Pantera.” The husband was “actually” Pappos ben Judah, the mother was Stada. The mother was Miriam “Mary” the dresser of women's hair. As we say in Pumbeditha, “She has been false to “satath da” her husband.”
                            This passage refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and dates around AD40 or so.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
                              For as long as I can remember my friends, who are Christian, often ask "Can't G-d do all things?" and "Couldn't there be a Virgin Birth if G-d desired to create one?" These are very complex questions and deserve an answer but, I have never heard the answer to a few questions some of us on the Jewish side would ask of Christians. I am not a Counter Missionary so dont assume I am. I happen to think that their positions are fallacious.

                              1. Why would G-d need to cause a "Virgin Birth?"
                              2. What event/events/issue/issues caused a need for a "Virgin Birth?"
                              3. Is there clear evidence or are there reasons within the Hebrew bible and the Oral Torah for the need of a Virgin Birth to bring the Messiah into the World?

                              The reason I included the Oral tradition is because Judaism is not Sola Scriptura and should not be treated as such. I am curious as to what the answers are or will be.

                              Shalom,

                              Avraham Ibn Ezra

                              A quick question:


                              I have a couple of questions which apply more to the Old then to the New.

                              In the prophecy about the 12 twelve tribes of Israel being enslaved by Egyptians - where was it said that a deliverer would come? ((Covenant of Between the Pieces) Was there a notation on this?

                              Also, on the verse which tells us: And Jacob called to his sons, and said: "Gather together, that I may tell you what will happen with you in the end of days.".

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra
                                1. Why would G-d need to cause a "Virgin Birth?"
                                Why would Hashem need to part the Jordan that Elisha should cross on dry ground?
                                2. What event/events/issue/issues caused a need for a "Virgin Birth?"
                                It would seem that at base the repeated violations of the covenant made it necessary for the Law of Moses to be replaced - and is that not what was being taught in Israel so long ago ... that the Messiah would annul the Law of Moses. (I'm not sure of exact details of 1st Century teachings on this matter beyond that the Messiah was expected to establish a new covenant.)
                                3. Is there clear evidence or are there reasons within the Hebrew bible and the Oral Torah for the need of a Virgin Birth to bring the Messiah into the World?
                                It only says that the virgin will be with child and that her pregnancy will be a sign from God. Beyond the simple fact that the pregnancy must be a sign from God, it seems there is no empirical need for the mother to be a virgin. However, with regard to the New Testament, the messiah was the Memra become flesh - so it would be more a matter of not no need to have been swyving, rather than needing to be a virgin. According to rumour, there are 120 signs in total that attend the advent of the Messiah - this is only one of them.

                                I believe that the Biblical Letter to the Hebrews of the New Testament might have more meaning to Jewish people than to other races. It may be that the letter provides more information than I can appreciate that would give you a better answer.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 07-31-2014, 08:35 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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