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What Led to the Messiah being sent to the world?

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  • What Led to the Messiah being sent to the world?

    What Led to the Messiah being sent to the world?

  • #2
    You mean aside from our (humanity) screwing everything up so that we need Him?

    I'm always still in trouble again

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    • #3
      I was more thinking about the steps leading to the appearing of the Messiah.
      Maybe there is more to this than simply "the woman sinned; the Messiah came."
      Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-13-2019, 03:36 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        I was more thinking about the steps leading to the appearing of the Messiah.
        Maybe there is more to this than simply "the woman sinned; the Messiah came."
        Interesting thought. I think it's more than a woman sinned; the Messiah came. It's about restoring our intimate relationship with our creator. About restoring the link between heaven and earth. OT scholar Michael Heiser suggests that, as imagers of God (an expression that I believe he borrows from NT Wright), the Messiah was to restore the original plan of humanity sharing in the divine council, "Since Eden was the place where both spheres intersected, it was God’s intent that humankind share membership in and be an extension of his divine council. Job 15:7-8 give us a hint of this when one of Job’s friends taunts him by comparing Job to Adam: 'Are you the first man who was born? Or were you brought forth before the hills? Have you listened in the council of God (eloah)?' The elohim would assist God’s sovereign rule from the spiritual plane, and humankind would take over on the earthly plane." So Christ restores that balance as well, where we become joint-heirs as we were always intended to be.

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        • #5
          I think what's most interesting is that God waited several thousand years before bringing his plan of salvation to fruition.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Interesting thought. I think it's more than a woman sinned; the Messiah came. It's about restoring our intimate relationship with our creator. About restoring the link between heaven and earth. OT scholar Michael Heiser suggests that, as imagers of God (an expression that I believe he borrows from NT Wright), the Messiah was to restore the original plan of humanity sharing in the divine council, "Since Eden was the place where both spheres intersected, it was God’s intent that humankind share membership in and be an extension of his divine council. Job 15:7-8 give us a hint of this when one of Job’s friends taunts him by comparing Job to Adam: 'Are you the first man who was born? Or were you brought forth before the hills? Have you listened in the council of God (eloah)?' The elohim would assist God’s sovereign rule from the spiritual plane, and humankind would take over on the earthly plane." So Christ restores that balance as well, where we become joint-heirs as we were always intended to be.
            This is very much the Orthodox view. As we sing on the third Sunday in Lent:
            "The flaming sword no longer guards the gates of Paradise. It
            has been mysteriously extinguished by the Wood of the
            Cross. The sting of death and the victory of hades have been
            vanquished. For You, O my Saviour, came and cried to those
            in hades: Enter again, into Paradise. "
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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            • #7
              I was trying to see if people had concepts of how the Messiah was to emerge from among the people of Israel and why there was a focus on Jesus as the Son of David.

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              • #8
                Which "people?" Ancient Israelites? Second Temple Israelites? The first Jewish converts or modern Christians?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Which "people?" Ancient Israelites? Second Temple Israelites? The first Jewish converts or modern Christians?
                  Essentially the ancient people. Do twebbers have ideas why a prophet should arise like unto Moses? Why was it important to designate that a descendant of David would rule on the throne? How does the behavior of (ancient) Israelites fit into the coming of the Messiah?

                  I was curious how people see these bits and pieces from the OT (with possible insights from the NT). Or are these details just not considered much by Christians?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    Essentially the ancient people. Do twebbers have ideas why a prophet should arise like unto Moses? Why was it important to designate that a descendant of David would rule on the throne? How does the behavior of (ancient) Israelites fit into the coming of the Messiah?

                    I was curious how people see these bits and pieces from the OT (with possible insights from the NT). Or are these details just not considered much by Christians?
                    Your average pew sitting Christian? No, it's probably not considered much. Michael Heiser suggests that God chose Israel largely because of the Babel incident. He suggests that Deuteronomy 32:8–9 refers back to the Babel incident when the people were dispersed. Yahweh disinherited the nations (the rest were given over to the other Sons of God), and like the Flood incident, wanted to start over again, now with a nation that had yet to exist...Israel. A nation that he could guide and mold, and who would finally be obedient and in right relationship with him. Why David? I think the obvious answer is because David exemplified a righteous Israeli king, and a man after God's own heart.

                    As a Christian who is considering these things, what's your answer to your OP? Or where do you lean?

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                    • #11
                      Deut 32 basically explains that the people of Israel will largely fall away. The explanation of the problem is found in Isaiah 5.
                      1 Let me sing for my well beloved a song of my beloved about his vineyard.
                      My beloved had a vineyard on a very fruitful hill.
                      2 He dug it up,
                      gathered out its stones,
                      planted it with the choicest vine,
                      built a tower in the middle of it,
                      and also cut out a wine press in it.
                      He looked for it to yield grapes,
                      but it yielded wild grapes.

                      3 “Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
                      please judge between me and my vineyard.
                      4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it?
                      Why, when I looked for it to yield grapes, did it yield wild grapes?
                      5 Now I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard.
                      I will take away its hedge, and it will be eaten up.
                      I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled down.
                      6 I will lay it a wasteland.
                      It won’t be pruned or hoed,
                      but it will grow briers and thorns.
                      I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain on it.”
                      7 For the vineyard of Yahweh of Armies is the house of Israel,
                      and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:t
                      and he looked for justice, but, behold, oppression;
                      for righteousness, but, behold, a cry of distress. (WEB)
                      The gist here is that humanity couldn't be repaired by external measures to clean them up. The Hebrew people were the demonstration of this problem -- while also having benefits through this era. It is not that the Hebrew people were better or worse than other nations (as to their general qualities, apart from the basic nuturing by God); we learn later that the externally acting Mosaic Law could not change a person's nature.

                      This inability to change human nature externally is one foundational issue why the Messiah would bring forth a new creation. The people of Israel were to be preserved intact until the Messiah would arrive. There was an apologetic aspect to this, namely that the identity and origin of the Messiah would be known through prophetic fulfillment.

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                      • #12
                        Short answer: God so willed. Though whether the Incarnation was intended anyway, regardless of sin, is another question.

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                        • #13
                          This inability to change human nature externally is one foundational issue why the Messiah would bring forth a new creation.
                          Ah ... a nice lynch-pin. Can I steal it?
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Ah ... a nice lynch-pin. Can I steal it?
                            Sure. I hope the idea can be useful somewhere.

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