What Led to the Messiah being sent to the world?
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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What Led to the Messiah being sent to the world?
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You mean aside from our (humanity) screwing everything up so that we need Him?
I'm always still in trouble again
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I was more thinking about the steps leading to the appearing of the Messiah.
Maybe there is more to this than simply "the woman sinned; the Messiah came."Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-13-2019, 03:36 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI was more thinking about the steps leading to the appearing of the Messiah.
Maybe there is more to this than simply "the woman sinned; the Messiah came."
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostInteresting thought. I think it's more than a woman sinned; the Messiah came. It's about restoring our intimate relationship with our creator. About restoring the link between heaven and earth. OT scholar Michael Heiser suggests that, as imagers of God (an expression that I believe he borrows from NT Wright), the Messiah was to restore the original plan of humanity sharing in the divine council, "Since Eden was the place where both spheres intersected, it was God’s intent that humankind share membership in and be an extension of his divine council. Job 15:7-8 give us a hint of this when one of Job’s friends taunts him by comparing Job to Adam: 'Are you the first man who was born? Or were you brought forth before the hills? Have you listened in the council of God (eloah)?' The elohim would assist God’s sovereign rule from the spiritual plane, and humankind would take over on the earthly plane." So Christ restores that balance as well, where we become joint-heirs as we were always intended to be.
"The flaming sword no longer guards the gates of Paradise. It
has been mysteriously extinguished by the Wood of the
Cross. The sting of death and the victory of hades have been
vanquished. For You, O my Saviour, came and cried to those
in hades: Enter again, into Paradise. "Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhich "people?" Ancient Israelites? Second Temple Israelites? The first Jewish converts or modern Christians?
I was curious how people see these bits and pieces from the OT (with possible insights from the NT). Or are these details just not considered much by Christians?
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostEssentially the ancient people. Do twebbers have ideas why a prophet should arise like unto Moses? Why was it important to designate that a descendant of David would rule on the throne? How does the behavior of (ancient) Israelites fit into the coming of the Messiah?
I was curious how people see these bits and pieces from the OT (with possible insights from the NT). Or are these details just not considered much by Christians?
As a Christian who is considering these things, what's your answer to your OP? Or where do you lean?
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Deut 32 basically explains that the people of Israel will largely fall away. The explanation of the problem is found in Isaiah 5.
1 Let me sing for my well beloved a song of my beloved about his vineyard.
My beloved had a vineyard on a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up,
gathered out its stones,
planted it with the choicest vine,
built a tower in the middle of it,
and also cut out a wine press in it.
He looked for it to yield grapes,
but it yielded wild grapes.
3 “Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
please judge between me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it?
Why, when I looked for it to yield grapes, did it yield wild grapes?
5 Now I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard.
I will take away its hedge, and it will be eaten up.
I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled down.
6 I will lay it a wasteland.
It won’t be pruned or hoed,
but it will grow briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of Yahweh of Armies is the house of Israel,
and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:t
and he looked for justice, but, behold, oppression;
for righteousness, but, behold, a cry of distress. (WEB)
This inability to change human nature externally is one foundational issue why the Messiah would bring forth a new creation. The people of Israel were to be preserved intact until the Messiah would arrive. There was an apologetic aspect to this, namely that the identity and origin of the Messiah would be known through prophetic fulfillment.
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This inability to change human nature externally is one foundational issue why the Messiah would bring forth a new creation.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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