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Cross can stay, Supreme Court rules...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Are we in an alternate universe?

    Court Rules President Trump Can Defund Planned Parenthood, Will Cut Almost $60 Million in Taxpayer Funding

    Today, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted the Trump administration’s request to lift national injunctions ordered by lower federal courts in Oregon and Washington state, as well as a statewide injunction in California.

    https://www.lifenews.com/2019/06/20/...payer-funding/
    And it's the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. About the last one that I figured would decide that way.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      And it's the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. About the last one that I figured would decide that way.
      Actually overturning two lower courts. Trump has been appointing a lot of federal judges, I wonder...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Actually overturning two lower courts. Trump has been appointing a lot of federal judges, I wonder...
        Well a stopped watch and all.

        Comment


        • #19
          Short and useful analysis of the opinions courtesy of SCOTUSBlog:
          https://www.scotusblog.com/2019/06/o...ross-to-stand/

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
            Short and useful analysis of the opinions courtesy of SCOTUSBlog:
            https://www.scotusblog.com/2019/06/o...ross-to-stand/
            Good reasoning...

            “The cross is a Christian symbol,” Alito concluded, “but that fact should not blind us to everything else that the Bladensburg Cross has come to represent. For some, that monument is a symbolic resting place for ancestors who never returned home,” while for others “it is a place for the community to gather and honor all veterans and their sacrifices for our Nation.” “For many of these people,” Alito stressed, “destroying or defacing the Cross that has stood undisturbed for nearly a century would not be neutral and would not further the ideals of respect and tolerance embodied in the First Amendment.”
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Good...
              Agreed
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Agreed
                4FourHorsemen.gif

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Interesting

                  Source: Neil Gorsuch Scorns the “Offended” Atheists


                  The Supreme Court justice had no patience for a legal challenge to a huge Christian cross maintained with taxpayer dollars.


                  A broad majority of the Supreme Court ruled on Thursday that an enormous Christian cross standing on public land, and funded by public money, does not violate the Constitution’s separation of church and state. In their written opinions, both for and against the ruling, most of the justices framed the dispute in relatively neutral terms. Justice Neil Gorsuch did not.

                  “The American Humanist Association wants a federal court to order the destruction of a 94 year-old war memorial because its members are offended,” Gorsuch wrote in his concurring opinion, referring to the secular group that challenged the cross. From there, he treated their arguments with clear disdain.

                  “The [AHA] claims that its members ‘regularly’ come into ‘unwelcome direct contact’ with a World War I memorial cross in Bladensburg, Maryland ‘while driving in the area,’” he wrote, quoting from the group’s brief. “And this, the [AHA] suggests, is enough to allow it to insist on a federal judicial decree ordering the memorial’s removal. Maybe, the [AHA] concedes, others who are less offended lack standing to sue. Maybe others still who are equally affected but who come into contact with the memorial too infrequently lack standing as well. But, the [AHA] assures us, its members are offended enough—and with sufficient frequency—that they may sue.”

                  Gorsuch, whose opinion was joined by Justice Clarence Thomas, sounds almost offended that anyone was offended. But it’s an important question for the court to consider: Who gets to be offended by government-funded displays of religion, and who doesn’t?

                  The 40-foot-tall concrete cross rises amid a busy roundabout in Bladensburg, Maryland. Local leaders built it in 1925 as a monument to soldiers who died in World War I. A local American Legion chapter owned and maintained the monument until 1961, when it donated the cross and the land underneath it to a local planning commission. Maryland today uses taxpayer dollars to provide for the cross’ upkeep.

                  In 2012, a group of local residents backed by the American Humanist Associated filed a lawsuit challenging the cross’ placement and funding. Federal courts have often cited the Constitution’s Establishment Clause—“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”—to block state and local governments from using taxpayer money for religious monuments. The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the residents last October in a 2-1 decision that the cross’ funding violated the separation between church and state.

                  The Supreme Court overturned that ruling in a 7-2 decision on Thursday. Justice Samuel Alito, writing for the majority, argued that the monument did not run afoul of the Constitution. “That the cross originated as a Christian symbol and retains that meaning in many contexts does not change the fact that the symbol took on an added secular meaning when used in World War I memorials,” he wrote. Alito noted that the passage of time had aided the cross’s case, writing that it had “acquired historical importance” and “become part of the community.”

                  Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg read her dissent from the bench, a rare sign of deep disapproval. Only Justice Sonia Sotomayor joined it. “By maintaining the Peace Cross on a public highway, the Commission elevates Christianity over other faiths, and religion over nonreligion,” Ginsburg wrote, quoting from past Supreme Court opinions at times. “Memorializing the service of American soldiers is an ‘admirable and unquestionably secular’ objective. But the Commission does not serve that objective by displaying a symbol that bears ‘a starkly sectarian message.’”

                  Gorsuch went even further than the majority, disputing that the AHA and the residents it represented had the legal standing to bring the case at all. He took aim at what he calls “offended-observer standing,” whereby a litigant can sue on Establishment Clause grounds when they witness a government display of religion that might violate the Constitution. This theory of standing, Gorsuch argued, runs counter to what courts generally require. “Imagine if a bystander disturbed by a police stop tried to sue under the Fourth Amendment,” he wrote. “Or envision a religious group upset about the application of the death penalty trying to sue to stop it. Does anyone doubt those cases would be rapidly dispatched for lack of standing?”

                  In a footnote in her own dissent, Ginsburg wrote that Gorsuch’s stance was “startling in view of the many religious-display cases this court has resolved on the merits.” Some legal experts have noted that without this theory of standing, there would be no way for the courts to limit government displays of religion. Gorsuch seems to welcome that outcome. Abandoning the theory, he wrote, would free the Supreme Court “from the sordid business of having to pass aesthetic judgment, one by one, on every public display in this country for its perceived capacity to give offense.”

                  What’s striking is his repeated description of the cross’ challengers as merely “offended.” Though there’s no reason to believe that the humanists’ belief is insincere, he treats it as pedestrian. “In a large and diverse country, offense can be easily found,” he wrote. “Really, most every governmental action probably offends somebody. No doubt, too, that offense can be sincere, sometimes well taken, even wise. But recourse for disagreement and offense does not lie in federal litigation.”

                  So who gets to be offended and who doesn’t? In this case, Alito’s opinion for the court gives a clear answer. The cross, he wrote, “has become a prominent community landmark, and its removal or radical alteration at this date would be seen by many not as a neutral act but as the manifestation of ‘a hostility toward religion that has no place in our Establishment Clause traditions.’” In other words, the monument survives judicial scrutiny in part because ruling otherwise could offend the wider community.

                  Alito concluded by recounting how the Bladensburg cross can be seen differently by residents: as a war memorial, as a historical landmark, as a symbol of the community. “For many of these people, destroying or defacing the Cross that has stood undisturbed for nearly a century would not be neutral and would not further the ideals of respect and tolerance embodied in the First Amendment,” he wrote.

                  In theory, the Establishment Clause requires the government to be neutral when it comes to public displays of religious beliefs. But to the majority, the cross’ absence—not its presence—is what crosses the line. Alito’s conclusion leaves out those who look at the cross and see a reminder that they don’t belong, a group that includes not just atheists but anyone who is not Christian. (The Jewish War Veterans of the USA filed an amicus brief in support of the AHA.)

                  The majority failed to take this into account throughout the decision. At one point, Alito argued that a religious symbol like the Latin cross—a symbol indisputably linked to Christianity and its fundamental beliefs—can be secularized. In one instance, he noted that the International Committee of the Red Cross adopted its iconic symbol in 1863 as a homage to the Swiss flag and its synonymy with neutrality. While the original Swiss flag adopted the cross for religious reasons, Alito explained, “the ICRC selected this symbol for an essentially secular reason, and the current secular message of the symbol is shown by its use today in nations with only tiny Christian populations,” including India and Japan.

                  It’s true that the Red Cross “shows how the meaning of a symbol that was originally religious can be transformed.” But it’s also not the whole story. The organization’s history also shows how hard it is to detach those symbols from their original connotations, and how efforts to insist otherwise can marginalize and excluded non-adherents.

                  Red Cross organizations in India and Japan are not run by the ICRC. They, like the American Red Cross, are members of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. According to the IFRC, the Ottoman Empire first used a red crescent during a war with Russia in 1876 because bearing a Christian symbol would be offensive to Muslim soldiers. Thirty-two national organizations in Muslim-majority countries now use the symbol in lieu of the cross. What’s more, the ICRC adopted a third symbol—a red diamond—in 2005 to resolve a long-standing dispute with Magen David Adom, its Israeli equivalent. Israel refused to adopt either the red cross or the red crescent, and the ICRC refused to recognize a red star of David as one of its symbols. The compromise allowed both the Israeli and Palestinian organizations to attain full membership.

                  Would it have been possible to uphold the cross’ constitutionality without undermining American religious pluralism? Maybe.

                  Justice Brett Kavanaugh reached largely the same conclusions as his colleagues in the majority. “At the same time, I have [a] deep respect for the plaintiffs’ sincere objections to seeing the cross on public land,” he wrote in a concurring opinion. “I have great respect for the Jewish war veterans who in an amicus brief say that the cross on public land sends a message of exclusion. I recognize their sense of distress and alienation. Moreover, I fully understand the deeply religious nature of the cross. It would demean both believers and nonbelievers to say that the cross is not religious, or not all that religious.”

                  But Kavanaugh did not condescend to the American Humanist Association or its members or derision for their beliefs. “A case like this is difficult because it represents a clash of genuine and important interests,” he continued. “Applying our precedents, we uphold the constitutionality of the cross. In doing so, it is appropriate to also restate this bedrock constitutional principle: All citizens are equally American, no matter what religion they are, or if they have no religion at all.”

                  What’s more, Kavanaugh offered a roadmap on how the humanists could still prevail. “The Court’s ruling allows the State to maintain the cross on public land,” he wrote. “The Court’s ruling does not require the State to maintain the cross on public land. The Maryland Legislature could enact new laws requiring removal of the cross or transfer of the land. The Maryland Governor or other state or local executive officers may have authority to do so under current Maryland law. And if not, the legislature could enact new laws to authorize such executive action.”

                  It’s not the same as ruling in their favor, of course. But it’s better than belittling them while they lose.



                  Source

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I dunno... being charitable is nice and all... but given the behavior of groups like the AHA and FFRF... I think I prefer "belittling them while they lose."
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      I dunno... being charitable is nice and all... but given the behavior of groups like the AHA and FFRF... I think I prefer "belittling them while they lose."
                      be nice...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        A collection of reactions from various atheist groups: https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...-cross-ruling/

                        Let's just say that they aren't happy

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          A collection of reactions from various atheist groups: https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...-cross-ruling/

                          Let's just say that they aren't happy
                          Would they like a little cheese with that whine????
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Seems like the simplest solution would have been to donate the land back to the American Legion or some church organization.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Seems like the simplest solution would have been to donate the land back to the American Legion or some church organization.
                              Actually - that would have been a great idea...
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Seems like the simplest solution would have been to donate the land back to the American Legion or some church organization.
                                Or sell it! I bought two whole city blocks in Cleveland Ohio for $1.00 each back in the late 80's - one of them contained a pretty good sized public school, which we turned into a neighborhood care center.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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