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Thread: Can Atheism Account For Rationality

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Can Atheism Account For Rationality

    The Christian believes that the laws of logic reflect the the immutable rational mind of God, which make said laws universal and absolute. So how does the atheist account for said laws? They are not physical; you can't touch, taste or see them. They are conceptual, it takes a mind to conceive them. But human minds are fickle and often wrong, and human minds are not universal. So human minds can not be the source of conceptual logical truths. The law of excluded middle for instance says that statements are either true or false, but it takes a mind to make that distinction. But again human minds are fallible and limited and can not be the ultimate source for absolute conceptual truths.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    The Christian believes that the laws of logic reflect the the immutable rational mind of God, which make said laws universal and absolute. So how does the atheist account for said laws? They are not physical; you can't touch, taste or see them. They are conceptual, it takes a mind to conceive them. But human minds are fickle and often wrong, and human minds are not universal. So human minds can not be the source of conceptual logical truths. The law of excluded middle for instance says that statements are either true or false, but it takes a mind to make that distinction. But again human minds are fallible and limited and can not be the ultimate source for absolute conceptual truths.
    Fair is fair. I told you I would engage here is you gave me a straight answer in the other thread. So, in answer to the question posed in the title, the simple answer is "no." Any logical argument made for the nature/existence of fundamental logical absolutes necessarily involves using those principles to make the argument, rendering the argument circular. The Christian can claim anything they wish, but they are in the same boat as the atheist with respect to these principles.

    As for the rest of your statements, they are riddled with assumptions you cannot show to be true. It takes a mind to apply logical concepts. It takes a mind to express logical concepts. It takes a mind to recognize and grasp logical concepts. Logical concepts are nothing more than expressions that articulate an objective reality. You have not shown that a mind creates that underlying reality.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019 at 08:28 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    I don't think God created logic. It is just a language used to describe reality.

    For example, "A cannot both be A and Not-A in the same way at the same time." The law of non-contradiction. It just describes reality.

    God can't both exist and not exist in the same way at the same time.

    He has no "control" over that. It is just true.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I don't think God created logic. It is just a language used to describe reality.

    For example, "A cannot both be A and Not-A in the same way at the same time." The law of non-contradiction. It just describes reality.

    God can't both exist and not exist in the same way at the same time.

    He has no "control" over that. It is just true.
    I think Seer is trying to argue that these principles somehow "arise" (not sure what that means) from god's nature. After all, if they don't, then it suggests that something exists that god is somehow separate from and subject to, creating a bit of a theological mess.

    Seer, please correct me if I have misrepresented your position.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I think Seer is trying to argue that these principles somehow "arise" (not sure what that means) from god's nature. After all, if they don't, then it suggests that something exists that god is somehow separate from and subject to, creating a bit of a theological mess.

    Seer, please correct me if I have misrepresented your position.
    I don't see logic as a THING. Logic is just the principal of "right thinking" - I suppose if God didn't exist then there would be no logic because there would be nothing and no one to think. But the actual principals that logic describes would be true independent of God.

    The three basic logical "laws"

    Non-contradiction (A can't be A or not-A at the same time in the same manner)
    Excluded middle (a statement is either true or false, it can't be both)
    Identity (A=A)

    They apply to God as well as everything else. They are necessary not contingent. But they are not actual "laws" or "things" that can exist or not exist. They are just statements that describe basic reality. Logical absolutes. All other logical principals stem from these three statements of reality.

    God can't break them. He can't make himself not be God, or to exist and not exist. That would be irrational.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I don't think God created logic. It is just a language used to describe reality.
    Kinda like the laws of physics. They simply attempt to describe what is true.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Kinda like the laws of physics. They simply attempt to describe what is true.
    Yeah but with physics, God did create those. He could have changed the way gravity works for instance. That would change the "law" of gravity. But with logic, I can't see how God could make it so that A = Not-A in the same way at the same time.

    I also don't think God created numbers. They also just describe basic reality. If you have one object and you add another one, you have two objects. That just is. Even if there are no objects the principal still exists.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I don't see logic as a THING. Logic is just the principal of "right thinking" - I suppose if God didn't exist then there would be no logic because there would be nothing and no one to think. But the actual principals that logic describes would be true independent of God.

    The three basic logical "laws"

    Non-contradiction (A can't be A or not-A at the same time in the same manner)
    Excluded middle (a statement is either true or false, it can't be both)
    Identity (A=A)

    They apply to God as well as everything else. They are necessary not contingent. But they are not actual "laws" or "things" that can exist or not exist. They are just statements that describe basic reality. Logical absolutes. All other logical principals stem from these three statements of reality.

    God can't break them. He can't make himself not be God, or to exist and not exist. That would be irrational.
    Sparko - the argument isn't mine. I don't even think there IS a god. I was just trying to reflect what I think Seer might be trying to say. Perhaps it would be best if I just hush up and let him speak for himself.

    Generally, however, I agree with your description of logical universals/absolutes. The mind grasps/recognizes them; it does not create them. Likewise, there is no rational argument that can be constructed to explain them without getting caught in circularity. They are the foundation on which rationality is built.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Sparko - the argument isn't mine. I don't even think there IS a god. I was just trying to reflect what I think Seer might be trying to say. Perhaps it would be best if I just hush up and let him speak for himself.

    Generally, however, I agree with your description of logical universals/absolutes. The mind grasps/recognizes them; it does not create them. Likewise, there is no rational argument that can be constructed to explain them without getting caught in circularity. They are the foundation on which rationality is built.
    I wasn't arguing with you, just explaining how I see it. If seer thinks God somehow created logic I think he is wrong. And if he thinks it exists because of God's nature he will have to explain that. I agree that God is rational but I fail to see how that would 'create logic'

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Kinda like the laws of physics. They simply attempt to describe what is true.
    Not exactly. Yes, they both describe existence and the universe. However, there is nothing "necessary" about the laws of physics. We can conceive of a universe in which the basic forces are different (gravitation, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak atomic forces). Perhaps a universe could exist in which atoms are not the building blocks of matter so there is no strong/weak atomic force. I can even conceive of that being true within this universe in some place/time or quantum level. But I cannot conceive of a universe in which a thing can be "not itself" or a thing could exist and not exist at the same time/place in the same way.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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