Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Can Atheism Account For Rationality
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou are begging the question. Why does this universe have the precise values and properties that is does? And not only is it life permitting, life shows up, and not only life but conscious life (and as we discussed in the past no one knows why how we became conscious). So again we have two choices for what created this universe - the rational or the non-rational.
"Why" implies "purpose" or "reason." In other words, you are asking, "for what purpose does this universe have the precise values and properties that is does?" or "for what reason does this universe have the precise values and properties that is does?" Purpose and reason imply a purposer or a reasoner (i.e., a mind.) If there is no mind, the question is meaningless. So you are essentially assuming your conclusion in asking the question.
Either that - or you are misapplying probability and statistics.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, only a handful of animals test positive for self-awareness:http://www.animalcognition.org/2015/...e-mirror-test/
You can't be a little self-aware, you either are or you are not. You can't be a little pregnant.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSeer is stone walling with a religious agenda, and does not realize the vast amount of research in consciousness and self-awareness in animals, and yes in simple form in the simpler animals, actually demonstrating evolution.
I have a theory. I think "self-awareness" brings along with it "self-centeredness." The entire universe is seen from the perspective of the person seeing, with themselves necessarily at the center of that point of observation. This was reflected initially in our astronomy, until we discovered through science that this planet is not the center of the universe. But it persists today in our theology (god is amazingly preoccupied with the lowly humans on this one planet in a backwater of the universe, and is amazingly human-like), and even in our sentience (surely no other lowly animal could possess such human-like characteristics?!).
Of course this is explained by noting that god created us "in his image and likeness." Convenient that. It couldn't possibly be that we created our gods, and have from the down of humanity, in the image and likeness of various parts of nature - first the forces of nature, then animal spirits, and eventually they took human form. There is a natural progression form one to the other.
When I look at it today, I find myself amazed that I was ever theist. It seems like another person in another life.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAhh.. there's that good-old binary thinking again. Indeed, consciousness and reasoning does appear to be a continuum rather than a binary function, whereas pregnancy is not. You are comparing apples to oranges.Last edited by seer; 07-03-2019, 05:46 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAccepting self-awareness and intelligence in other species than humans would be a significant challenge for some religious belief systems to incorporate into their doctrines and theologies.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHave you never heard of Pansychism?
I will readily admit that I have only quickly skimmed some material. What jumps out at me is, over and over, "cannot be empirically tested." At first blush, it appears to be of a kind with "intelligent design." It seems to be more religion than science.
But I have to admit I have only skimmed the material and that is only a first impression. That being said, it aligns with my impression of your arguments.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell I see no hope for the individual, or humanity in general, with atheism - it is all dust in the end...
Unless, of course, you just accept that this is how things are. Hope is limited to what we have within the confines of our life. Hope for something beyond is simply false hope. It is not clear to me that false hope is better than simply embracing what is.
In short, Seer, your signature says a great deal about you, but not really much of anything about atheism.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWe are speaking of self awareness Carp, so how is one just a little self aware? One minute I recognize myself the next I don't? Even if I'm just a little self aware I'm still self-aware.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhy would you even say that? I never had a problem accepting that other creatures are self aware.
First, there is no actual evidence that other animals are self-aware, nor do you actually know if they are actually experiencing REM sleep, or if REM sleep necessarily links to self-awareness. It is ALL speculation which not actual evidence.
Out of curiosity...what was second?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMore mammals show self-awareness than you 'think.' Also consciousness is pretty much universal with mammals and possibly other animals.Last edited by Zara; 07-03-2019, 06:41 PM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostFirst, your use of language is pretty spot on for someone who is not versed in computer science. Second, I don't disagree with anything you've said, largely because the computer is not (yet) a sentient machine. However, what you are describing is not dissimilar from how the brain functions. The computer is digital, specifically binary (until we have quantum computers) so it does indeed represent everything a 0's and 1's. The human brain is better described as an analog computer, so it can store information in a virtually infinite number of states. It also has the marvelous ability to form new connections between cells (synapses) and it appears to be the patterns of these connections and the ways in which they are activated that give rise to memory and thought. A computer has a fixed architecture that doesn't change unless someone changes the CPU, and then they are simply substituting one fixed architecture for another. A computer compared to the brain of pretty much ANY animal is a very crude tool. If sentience is a function of complexity, as many believe it is, the modern computer is simply nowhere near complex enough.
So, right now, the information a computer is so marvelously good at processing is intended for the most self-reflective mind we know to exist - the human brain. That does not, however, lead to the belief that the computer cannot become sentient if it could ever be designed to be sufficiently complex.
I tried to argue this point with Shunya, however, I gave up in the end as you probably noticed. The point is that we do not know what it is about the human brain that allows it to give rise to a mind. John Searle's Chinese room argument goes some way towards showing that current forms of computers are not sufficient to result in a sentient mind - this is in principle, even a super complex form would be insufficient. While future computers could, possibly do so, the issue is that without an understanding of the causal power that results in our mindedness, we do not have grounds to believe that even a "complex" computer that appears to act like it is sentient is sentient. While you say it is complexity, it might simply be a quantum mechanical effect dependent on our type of synapses and the neurotransmitter soup in which they are supported.
We could be completely wrong also, a sceptical argument could just run a matrix type theory and say that to be minded we need to be in the real world - where the 'brain' we see in our perception, and all our science, are mere programmed illusions with no bearing on the actual causal power (whatever it is about the real world) that results in a minded experience. I'm not arguing that this is the case, however, the absolute certainty displayed by a few people here needs some softening.Last edited by Zara; 07-03-2019, 06:39 PM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSure...and if you place a cube of sugar in the ocean, you have "sugar water."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer, on this topic you are all over the map.
First, there is no actual evidence that other animals are self-aware, nor do you actually know if they are actually experiencing REM sleep, or if REM sleep necessarily links to self-awareness. It is ALL speculation which not actual evidence.
Out of curiosity...what was second?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou are begging the question. Why does this universe have the precise values and properties that is does? And not only is it life permitting, life shows up, and not only life but conscious life (and as we discussed in the past no one knows why how we became conscious).
So again we have two choices for what created this universe - the rational or the non-rational.
There are many verifiable reasons indicating that we have been shaped by natural selection over millions of years of evolution. This obviously includes consciousness and the rational behavior found in several species. OTOH: There is NO reason to think a ‘god did it’ other than the primitive imaginings by men of an earlier era.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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