Originally posted by JimL
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Can Atheism Account For Rationality
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat's because, unlike the distinction between a rock and tree, there is no evidence of this supernatural thing that you are trying to make a distinction of. Except that which you make up out of whole cloth, that is.
As best I can tell, Seer wants to preserve the possibility that the universe arising from a god is perfectly natural. There is nothing about the definition of the terms that precludes that, but he doesn't see it. He's somehow stuck on not liking the definitions of the terms and seeing them as somehow "different" from the definitions of any other terms. I've tried every way I can to get him to see the problem with his reasoning, but he's apparently not going to see it from me. I doubt he'll see it from you either.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs best I can tell, Seer wants to preserve the possibility that the universe arising from a god is perfectly natural. There is nothing about the definition of the terms that precludes that, but he doesn't see it. He's somehow stuck on not liking the definitions of the terms and seeing them as somehow "different" from the definitions of any other terms. I've tried every way I can to get him to see the problem with his reasoning, but he's apparently not going to see it from me. I doubt he'll see it from you either.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp there is no problem with my reasoning, you are the one who is arguing in a circle and accepting definitions with no rational justification; that because we define natural and supernatural one way means that they actually are that way. There is no logical or objective reason to accept that.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp there is no problem with my reasoning, you are the one who is arguing in a circle and accepting definitions with no rational justification; that because we define natural and supernatural one way means that they actually are that way. There is no logical or objective reason to accept that.
Simple question: do you think that we can divide concepts/things into "those that can be investigated by science" and "those that cannot be investigated by science?"
"Yes" or "no" is all that is required.Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-16-2019, 01:25 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSimple question: do you think that we can divide concepts/things into "those that can be investigated by science" and "those that cannot be investigated by science?"Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOK. So what word would you like to use for the things that science can investigate - and what word would you like to use for the things that science cannot?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostInvestigable, not investigable.
Using your preferred words: we live in a largely "investigatable" universe. It is possible the origins of this universe are also "investigatable." If they are not, then they are "not investigatable."
Using the previously used words: we live in a largely "natural" universe. It is possible the origins of this universe are also "natural." If they are not, then they are "supernatural."
All you have done is substituted one term for another to appease whatever angst you had about "natural" and "supernatural." Nothing about what I have said has changed one iota.
That's how words work.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOK, then...
Using your preferred words: we live in a largely "investigatable" universe. It is possible the origins of this universe are also "investigatable." If they are not, then they are "not investigatable."
Using the previously used words: we live in a largely "natural" universe. It is possible the origins of this universe are also "natural." If they are not, then they are "supernatural."
All you have done is substituted one term for another to appease whatever angst you had about "natural" and "supernatural." Nothing about what I have said has changed one iota.
That's how words work.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo what if some aspects of the "natural" are beyond understanding and non-investigatable, does that make them supernatural?
Generally, however, it would seem to me there are two groups of things that are "not investigatable." The first is that group for which there is simply no way for the scientific method to be applied because the thing in question does not conform to predictable/repeatable/intelligible principles. The notion of "gods" generally falls into this camp. So too with angels, devils, ghosts, unicorns, and so forth. We tend to use "supernatural" for this group. The second is that group of things which presumably does operate on predictable/repeatable/intelligent principles, but for which there is no way to derive an experiment to test hypotheses related to the thing in question. The origins of the universe may well be an example of that "noninvestigatable" class. We do not tend to use "supernatural for this collection of things. "Intelligent design" seems to fit into that camp as well, but it's actually "god did it" in disguise, so it actually fits into the former camp.Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-16-2019, 08:07 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhere is your evidence that this universe is natural? What does that even mean?
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp there is no problem with my reasoning, you are the one who is arguing in a circle and accepting definitions with no rational justification; that because we define natural and supernatural one way means that they actually are that way. There is no logical or objective reason to accept that.Last edited by JimL; 07-16-2019, 09:17 PM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOn the basis of my experience of "I" and "self" and "consciousness."
I am not 100% sure what "beyond the brain" means to you. If you mean it spatially - then no - I don't think we can "project consciousness." If you mean "independent of," then again no. All evidence I know of suggests the mind stops when the brain stops. If you mean "transcending the biology of the brain," then I would say "yes." That is essentially what an emergent property is: it's a property that emerges as a function of complexity (we think) whose nature is not detectable in the individual elements that make up the complexity. You will not find "mind" in a neuron. You WILL find mind in a collection of interconnected neurons of sufficient complexity, yet it is the same neurons. This emergent property is transcendent - and immaterial. It does, however, depend on the immaterial for its existence.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI would say there is as much "objective comparison" as there is for any other two things. In this case, the comparison has to do with the applicability of the scientific method to investigate. In this case, the two "things" in question are not objects so much as they are "classes of things." It's like comparing "geological things" to "astronomical things."
But I agree that the supernatural (most likely) does not exist outside of human mythology.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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