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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Can Atheism Account For Rationality

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    I said earlier that if something is created by intelligence it is not "natural." Natural would be that created by non-intelligent forces of nature. So if this universe was created by non-intelligent forces I would consider that natural.If created by intelligence then non-natural.
    And that is why we call it natural, it's the "nature" of our experience. We don't have any such empirical experience of a distinct existence. If there were a distinct existing thing, that created this world, and you give them both the same defining title, then it wouldn't make any difference what you call it, you could call it supernatural, or you could call it natural, either term would mean the same thing. So, all you are really doing is trying to say that the world, because, in your opinion, it was created is supernatural in order to tie it to a creator. So, you could call it mickey mouse if you wanted, it doesn't help your underlying agenda, it doesn't prove that an existing entity, distinct from this universe does indeed exist.

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    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      And that is why we call it natural, it's the "nature" of our experience. We don't have any such empirical experience of a distinct existence. If there were a distinct existing thing, that created this world, and you give them both the same defining title, then it wouldn't make any difference what you call it, you could call it supernatural, or you could call it natural, either term would mean the same thing. So, all you are really doing is trying to say that the world, because, in your opinion, it was created is supernatural in order to tie it to a creator. So, you could call it mickey mouse if you wanted, it doesn't help your underlying agenda, it doesn't prove that an existing entity, distinct from this universe does indeed exist.
      No Jim, what I'm saying is you can't claim that this is a natural universe without begging the question... Because you don't know.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        No Jim, what I'm saying is you can't claim that this is a natural universe without begging the question... Because you don't know.
        No seer, what you are saying is that we can't claim that this universe wasn't created without begging the question. But, this universe is all that we do know of, so we are justified in calling it natural as opposed to your alternative of supernatural. You on the other hand have no evidence of a creator, therefore it is you who is begging the question. Give it up while your behind, seer.

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        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          No seer, what you are saying is that we can't claim that this universe wasn't created without begging the question. But, this universe is all that we do know of, so we are justified in calling it natural as opposed to your alternative of supernatural. You on the other hand have no evidence of a creator, therefore it is you who is begging the question. Give it up while your behind, seer.
          This is what I've been trying to tell him all along. His assumption that the universe must have been created (as opposed to have always existed) is "begging the question".
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            I said earlier that if something is created by intelligence it is not "natural."
            Not true.

            Natural would be that created by non-intelligent forces of nature. So if this universe was created by non-intelligent forces I would consider that natural. If created by intelligence then non-natural.
            Not so. We are intelligent beings and we are “natural” and we have the ability to create technology etc. utilizing the natural resources of the planet. There is nothing non-natural about that.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              No seer, what you are saying is that we can't claim that this universe wasn't created without begging the question. But, this universe is all that we do know of, so we are justified in calling it natural as opposed to your alternative of supernatural. You on the other hand have no evidence of a creator, therefore it is you who is begging the question. Give it up while your behind, seer.
              But there is no supernatural in my definitions Jim, and by my definitions of natural and non-natural you (we) do not know which this universe is. Tell me logically why you are justified in calling that universe natural. Apart from asserting an opinion? How would a natural universe differ from a non-natural universe? What would we look for?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                But there is no supernatural in my definitions Jim, and by my definitions of natural and non-natural you (we) do not know which this universe is. Tell me logically why you are justified in calling that universe natural. Apart from asserting an opinion? How would a natural universe differ from a non-natural universe? What would we look for?
                The point seer, is that your argument is that natural means uncreated, and you don't like the idea of the universe being uncreated, so you want to say that it is created and therefore that it is supernatural. In reality, that isn't what natural means, natural when refering to the universe, simply means the universe of our perception, of our experience. It has nothing to do with whether or not it was created. You can believe it was created if you want, but whether it was or not, it is still of the same "nature." Just admit it seer, this is simply a religious ideology you are trying to push. Call it created or supernatural if it makes you feel good. It doesn't matter.

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                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  But there is no supernatural in my definitions Jim,
                  Yet you posit that a disembodied intelligence created the universe. 'Natural' bodies do not have an immaterial component, this by definition is 'supernatural'.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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