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Cogito ergo sum

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Can Atheism Account For Rationality

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    I just don't see how you make the distinction; one deterministic biological function (a good fart) is non-rational, but another equally deterministic biological function (a thought/belief ) is some how rational.
    A thought/belief may or may not be rational. If it is counter to the principles of reason/logic (I believe A is not equal to A), it is irrational. If it conforms to them (I believe A is equal to A), it is rational. If it is indifferent to them (I think that I'd like a cup of coffee) it is nonrational. A good fart, as far as I know, is nonrational. It has nothing to do with rationality.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      As for the appellation, you can be assured that I am fairly regularly called (or accused of being) many things around here, many of them both uncivil and simply wrong. Such is life.
      Eh, you give as well as you get. Just a few days ago you were claiming most of the Christians here were "bigots".

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        A thought/belief may or may not be rational. If it is counter to the principles of reason/logic (I believe A is not equal to A), it is irrational. If it conforms to them (I believe A is equal to A), it is rational. If it is indifferent to them (I think that I'd like a cup of coffee) it is nonrational. A good fart, as far as I know, is nonrational. It has nothing to do with rationality.
        If you eat beans, it causes gas, which has to leave the body some way. Seems to operate in accordance to a logical biological and chemical process to me. So why isn't it rational?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I give up. You are determined to be as confusing as possible. "in accordance with logic" doesn't actually clarify anything. In accordance how? How can something that exists NOT be in accordance with logic? Give me an example.

          And IS a flower a rational object or not? You tell me.
          Setting your speculation on my motives aside, I have no idea how to make this simpler.

          Dictionary definition of "rational" - "in accordance with the principles of reason or logic."

          Example of "rational" - "I believe a thing is itself"
          Example of "irrational" - "I believe a thing is not itself"
          Example of "nonrational" - "I think I want a pizza."

          The first is in accordance with (aligned with, based on) the fundamental principle of identity - accepted to be a universal, absolute, truth.
          The second is not in accordance with (aligned on, based on) the fundamental principle of identity - it defies it.
          The third has nothing to do with reason/logic whatsoever, it neither is aligned with a logical principle, or in defiance of one. It has nothing to do with logic.

          A flower is not a "rational" object, AFAIK. It doesn't make choices based on Boolean operations, apply the law of identity or noncontradiction in a decision process, etc. It is also not irrational. It has essentially nothing to do with logic/reason, AFAIK. So it is nonrational.

          If you know otherwise, by all means share.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            Eh, you give as well as you get. Just a few days ago you were claiming most of the Christians here were "bigots".
            No - I actually wasn't. Indeed, I explicitly said the opposite. But that is how what I said was actually received and interpreted by several (apparently) and how it was responded to.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              If you eat beans, it causes gas, which has to leave the body some way. Seems to operate in accordance to a logical biological and chemical process to me. So why isn't it rational?
              Your gastronomic system is operating according to the laws of physics alone, Sparko - not the laws of logic. They are not the same. Now if you can come up with a biological organ operating according to the laws of physics that can actually apply or use the laws of logic, then we might....wait....wait....I think there might BE such an organ...


              ETA: and there's a non-biological device that can too!
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Setting your speculation on my motives aside, I have no idea how to make this simpler.

                Dictionary definition of "rational" - "in accordance with the principles of reason or logic."

                Example of "rational" - "I believe a thing is itself"
                Example of "irrational" - "I believe a thing is not itself"
                Example of "nonrational" - "I think I want a pizza."

                The first is in accordance with (aligned with, based on) the fundamental principle of identity - accepted to be a universal, absolute, truth.
                The second is not in accordance with (aligned on, based on) the fundamental principle of identity - it defies it.
                The third has nothing to do with reason/logic whatsoever, it neither is aligned with a logical principle, or in defiance of one. It has nothing to do with logic.

                A flower is not a "rational" object, AFAIK. It doesn't make choices based on Boolean operations, apply the law of identity or noncontradiction in a decision process, etc. It is also not irrational. It has essentially nothing to do with logic/reason, AFAIK. So it is nonrational.

                If you know otherwise, by all means share.
                OK you are talking about processes and I saw you and seer discussing OBJECTS. I think that was the disconnect. When you say a computer is rational, you are not talking about the physical box, but of the actions it goes through. That is why you don't see a flower as rational, (although it also operates through understandable and logical biological processes.)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Your gastronomic system is operating according to the laws of physics alone, Sparko - not the laws of logic. They are not the same. Now if you can come up with a biological organ operating according to the laws of physics that can actually apply or use the laws of logic, then we might....wait....wait....I think there might BE such an organ...


                  ETA: and there's a non-biological device that can too!
                  Except your brain uses purely biological processes that operate according to the laws of physics. And a computer operates purely on the laws of physics (electricity to be exact).

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    OK you are talking about processes and I saw you and seer discussing OBJECTS. I think that was the disconnect. When you say a computer is rational, you are not talking about the physical box, but of the actions it goes through. That is why you don't see a flower as rational, (although it also operates through understandable and logical biological processes.)
                    Processes are executed by objects. A computer operates in according to principles of logic/reason. A person can operate according to principles of logic and reason. I have no idea how a flower could do so. In the abstract, a process can be rationally or irrationally organized. A flow chart, for example, where both outputs of a decision point are "yes" and there is no "no" sounds pretty irrational to me.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      A thought/belief may or may not be rational. If it is counter to the principles of reason/logic (I believe A is not equal to A), it is irrational. If it conforms to them (I believe A is equal to A), it is rational. If it is indifferent to them (I think that I'd like a cup of coffee) it is nonrational. A good fart, as far as I know, is nonrational. It has nothing to do with rationality.
                      But a thought is not different than a fart, they are both just biologically determined functions. And you labeling one rational and another not is too just a biologically determined function. Again it is turtles all the way down. I see no justification for your distinction.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Except your brain uses purely biological processes that operate according to the laws of physics.
                        Yes - it is.

                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        And a computer operates purely on the laws of physics (electricity to be exact).
                        Yes, it does.

                        And that has nothing to do with what makes a thing rational, irrational, or nonrational.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Processes are executed by objects. A computer operates in according to principles of logic/reason. A person can operate according to principles of logic and reason. I have no idea how a flower could do so. In the abstract, a process can be rationally or irrationally organized. A flow chart, for example, where both outputs of a decision point are "yes" and there is no "no" sounds pretty irrational to me.
                          A flower executes processes too. Sunlight gets converted to energy through photosynthesis. That is an entirely logical process, which you could diagram if you like, or program a computer to simulate. Why isn't that rational?

                          Why isn't DNA rational? It is a language written into a molecule that determines everything about an organism as much as a computer program tells a computer how to act.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            But a thought is not different than a fart, they are both just biologically determined functions.
                            OK, I worked REALLY hard to fight the desire to post this way, but I figured CP would just jump on it if I didn't.

                            Seer, if your thoughts are no different than your farts, I now understand why you have so many problems following a logical argument...

                            Sorry...but you lobbed that one WAY up there....I just had to swing...

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            And you labeling one rational and another not is too just a biologically determined function. Again it is turtles all the way down. I see no justification for your distinction.
                            Again, there is nothing in the definition of "rational" that specifies the thing, how the thing came to be, what powers the thing, what color the thing is, or whether the thing likes bananas. The thing is operating/acting rationally if those actions/operations are "based on or in accordance with reason or logic."

                            For whatever reason, you are hung up on how the thing came to be, what its physical nature is (e.g., electrical, chemical, biological), whether or not there are other things with that nature that are or are not rational, and a whole lot of other things that have nothing to do with the definition of the term "rational."
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Yes - it is.



                              Yes, it does.

                              And that has nothing to do with what makes a thing rational, irrational, or nonrational.
                              How is it different from a fart? Does a fart violate any law of logic? Does it cause any contradictions? How is a fart not operating according to the laws of logic? How can anything in the universe violate the laws of logic? They are "built in" to the reality.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                A flower executes processes too. Sunlight gets converted to energy through photosynthesis.
                                Yes, it does.

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                That is an entirely logical process, which you could diagram if you like, or program a computer to simulate. Why isn't that rational?
                                It is a biological process. Yes, you can diagram it. You can explain the physics. You can understand the physics. That does not make the plant "rational." YOU, a rational person, can understand the plant's biology. You, a rational person, can explain the physics associated with the plant. As far as I know, the plant cannot apply logic or reason. If you can show me that it can, then I would agree that the plant is a "rational" thing.

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Why isn't DNA rational? It is a language written into a molecule that determines everything about an organism as much as a computer program tells a computer how to act.
                                You are using "rational" as synonymous with "understandable." That is not the way the word has been used for the discussion. If you want to use the term that way, we certainly can. That is simply not what we have been talking about, as far as I know.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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