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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Can Atheism Account For Rationality

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Except if there were no minds then conceptual logical truths would not exist.
    Assumed/asserted - not shown. Without minds, there clearly would be nothing to give expression to logical concepts. But a thing would still be itself. And it would still be impossible for a thing to be and not be at the same time/place and in the same way. The reality of those basic principles would still exist, just as the reality reflected by mathematical principles would still exist.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    So our minds can not be the source or ground of logical truths.
    They aren't. They simply formulate/encode/express them symbolically.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 12:01 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment

    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Except if there were no minds then conceptual logical truths would not exist. So our minds can not be the source or ground of logical truths.
      I don't think carp thinks that logic is something created by minds. I think he thinks, like me, minds discovered the principals of logic and used them to reason with.


      Without minds there would be no one to USE logic but the basic principals would still exist. Just like numbers. Even when there were no rational minds to understand them, numbers still "existed" - if you had 1 dinosaur and another walked up to it, there would be 2 dinosaurs. Whether anyone was there to see it or not.

      Same with logic. Imagine a universe that did exist without a God or any minds at all. A object in that universe still could not both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way.

      Comment

      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I don't think carp thinks that logic is something created by minds. I think he thinks, like me, minds discovered the principals of logic and used them to reason with.


        Without minds there would be no one to USE logic but the basic principals would still exist. Just like numbers. Even when there were no rational minds to understand them, numbers still "existed" - if you had 1 dinosaur and another walked up to it, there would be 2 dinosaurs. Whether anyone was there to see it or not.

        Same with logic. Imagine a universe that did exist without a God or any minds at all. A object in that universe still could not both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way.
        Hitler just called me from hell. Apparently, icebergs are forming...
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment

        • #19
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Hitler just called me from hell. Apparently, icebergs are forming...
          Not surprised he has your number.





          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment

          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Not surprised he has your number.






            You do realize that one-upping me in my own humorous posts is bad form, right?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment

            • #21
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Hitler just called me from hell. Apparently, icebergs are forming...
              Shouldn't you be complaining about me reading your mind?

              Comment

              • #22
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                You don't. None of us can. That is why we don't try to frame such arguments, and simply accept their truth prima facie.
                Except you are not accepting it prima facie since you are using reasoning to decide what is a prima facie truth or not. So again your circle is complete...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment

                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I don't think carp thinks that logic is something created by minds. I think he thinks, like me, minds discovered the principals of logic and used them to reason with.


                  Without minds there would be no one to USE logic but the basic principals would still exist. Just like numbers. Even when there were no rational minds to understand them, numbers still "existed" - if you had 1 dinosaur and another walked up to it, there would be 2 dinosaurs. Whether anyone was there to see it or not.

                  Same with logic. Imagine a universe that did exist without a God or any minds at all. A object in that universe still could not both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way.
                  I would say the same for numbers. We have the kind of rational mathematical universe that we have because the Creator thinks rationally and mathematically. They again are a reflection of His nature.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Shouldn't you be complaining about me reading your mind?
                    No. There is nothing wrong with repeating back something someone has said in your own words to verify that you understand it correctly. Based on what you posted, you have what I am saying spot-on and we are apparently in agreement, hence the icebergs

                    Mind reading is about telling someone else what they feel, what motivates them, etc and then insisting you have it right when they respond with what they are actually thinking/feeling.
                    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 12:31 PM.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Except you are not accepting it prima facie since you are using reasoning to decide what is a prima facie truth or not. So again your circle is complete...
                      I am accepting it as true prima facie until someone shows me it isn't (which is what prima facie means). Any attempt to explain WHY I accept it as true will necessarily involve circularity. That is a problem we ALL have. You asked me why I accept it as true, so I tried to answer your question. But I am under no illusion that this does not involve circularity.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I would say the same for numbers. We have the kind of rational mathematical universe that we have because the Creator thinks rationally and mathematically. They again are a reflection of His nature.
                        Again - asserted/assumed. Not shown.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I would say the same for numbers. We have the kind of rational mathematical universe that we have because the Creator thinks rationally and mathematically. They again are a reflection of His nature.
                          How does God thinking rationally create something like "A cannot equal Not-A"?

                          God can't exist and not exist at the same time, and his thinking rationally has nothing to do with it. Because if he didn't exist then he wouldn't be thinking.

                          If something exists (even God) then it can't also not exist at the same time. God has nothing to do with it.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            How does God thinking rationally create something like "A cannot equal Not-A"?

                            God can't exist and not exist at the same time, and his thinking rationally has nothing to do with it. Because if he didn't exist then he wouldn't be thinking.

                            If something exists (even God) then it can't also not exist at the same time. God has nothing to do with it.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              No. There is nothing wrong with repeating back something someone has said in your own words to verify that you understand it correctly. Based on what you posted, you have what I am saying spot-on and we are apparently in agreement, hence the icebergs

                              Mind reading is about telling someone else what they feel, what motivates them, etc and then insisting you have it right when they respond with what they are actually thinking/feeling.
                              Wait, so it is only "mind reading" when I get it wrong?

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                PS Here is a good primer on Logic and what it is (and isn't)


                                Comment

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