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Thread: Can Atheism Account For Rationality

  1. #11
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Not exactly.
    Which is why I said "kinda like".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. #12
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I wasn't arguing with you, just explaining how I see it. If seer thinks God somehow created logic I think he is wrong. And if he thinks it exists because of God's nature he will have to explain that. I agree that God is rational but I fail to see how that would 'create logic'
    No, I don't think God created logic. Rationally is how God thinks, and the laws of logic reflect His rational nature.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    They are the foundation on which rationality is built.
    How do you get that without arguing in a circle?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  4. #14
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As for the rest of your statements, they are riddled with assumptions you cannot show to be true. It takes a mind to apply logical concepts. It takes a mind to express logical concepts. It takes a mind to recognize and grasp logical concepts. Logical concepts are nothing more than expressions that articulate an objective reality. You have not shown that a mind creates that underlying reality.
    Except if there were no minds then conceptual logical truths would not exist. So our minds can not be the source or ground of logical truths.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #15
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    How do you get that without arguing in a circle?
    You don't. None of us can. That is why we don't try to frame such arguments, and simply accept their truth prima facie.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019 at 09:59 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except if there were no minds then conceptual logical truths would not exist.
    Assumed/asserted - not shown. Without minds, there clearly would be nothing to give expression to logical concepts. But a thing would still be itself. And it would still be impossible for a thing to be and not be at the same time/place and in the same way. The reality of those basic principles would still exist, just as the reality reflected by mathematical principles would still exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So our minds can not be the source or ground of logical truths.
    They aren't. They simply formulate/encode/express them symbolically.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019 at 10:01 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except if there were no minds then conceptual logical truths would not exist. So our minds can not be the source or ground of logical truths.
    I don't think carp thinks that logic is something created by minds. I think he thinks, like me, minds discovered the principals of logic and used them to reason with.


    Without minds there would be no one to USE logic but the basic principals would still exist. Just like numbers. Even when there were no rational minds to understand them, numbers still "existed" - if you had 1 dinosaur and another walked up to it, there would be 2 dinosaurs. Whether anyone was there to see it or not.

    Same with logic. Imagine a universe that did exist without a God or any minds at all. A object in that universe still could not both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I don't think carp thinks that logic is something created by minds. I think he thinks, like me, minds discovered the principals of logic and used them to reason with.


    Without minds there would be no one to USE logic but the basic principals would still exist. Just like numbers. Even when there were no rational minds to understand them, numbers still "existed" - if you had 1 dinosaur and another walked up to it, there would be 2 dinosaurs. Whether anyone was there to see it or not.

    Same with logic. Imagine a universe that did exist without a God or any minds at all. A object in that universe still could not both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way.
    Hitler just called me from hell. Apparently, icebergs are forming...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #19
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Hitler just called me from hell. Apparently, icebergs are forming...
    Not surprised he has your number.





    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. Amen Roy amen'd this post.
  11. #20
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Not surprised he has your number.






    You do realize that one-upping me in my own humorous posts is bad form, right?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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