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Thread: Can Atheism Account For Rationality

  1. #741
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right Tass, there is evidence for the material world, but why call it natural? You can't with out begging the question. You are working on a computer - would you call that computer "natural?" Doubtful.
    There is no “begging the question”. The ‘natural world’ consists of the material universe which can be studied and has the potential for empirical verification. And this includes my computer.

    The same cannot be said regarding the hypothesis of a supernatural world. Or are you the proud owner of a supernatural computer?

    To call this universe natural you would have to assume that natural forces created it and uphold it.
    We can reasonably assume this universe exists; we are part of it and we know we exist. How it originated is a matter of scientific investigation not nonscientific, unverifiable speculation about supernatural origins.

    But there is no evidence to support that claim. And if this universe really is a simulation they we can not call it natural any more than you would call your computer natural.
    Of course we "can call it natural", what else would it be? ALL technology, including the advanced technology of a simulated universe, is grounded in the Laws of Nature as understood by science.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  2. #742
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    There is no “begging the question”. The ‘natural world’ consists of the material universe which can be studied and has the potential for empirical verification. And this includes my computer..
    Well.. if the definition of "natural" is "can be investigated by science." Another definition is "not made by human hands," and your computer would not qualify for that one. Again, context is everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    The same cannot be said regarding the hypothesis of a supernatural world. Or are you the proud owner of a supernatural computer?

    We can reasonably assume this universe exists; we are part of it and we know we exist. How it originated is a matter of scientific investigation not nonscientific, unverifiable speculation about supernatural origins.

    Of course we "can call it natural", what else would it be? ALL technology, including the advanced technology of a simulated universe, is grounded in the Laws of Nature as understood by science.
    I think Seer is leaping to the conclusion that calling the universe "natural" implies it arose from "natural causes." He's misapplying the definition and, presumably because the results conflict with his worldview, objecting. In the process, his objection has him complaining about the nature of language itself.

    The whole thing is rather odd...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #743
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Well.. if the definition of "natural" is "can be investigated by science." Another definition is "not made by human hands," and your computer would not qualify for that one.
    The material universe can be investigated by science, which is the point I was making. Science studies the natural world which includes the components of the physical, material universe and this would include my computer.

    I think Seer is leaping to the conclusion that calling the universe "natural" implies it arose from "natural causes." He's misapplying the definition and, presumably because the results conflict with his worldview, objecting.
    Yes. Seer wants to separate the “natural, material world” from the supernatural and immaterial so as to claim that the natural, material universe came into existence at the instigation of a supernatural, immaterial entity, i.e. a deity.

    In the process, his objection has him complaining about the nature of language itself
    Exactly.

    The whole thing is rather odd...
    No surprise there.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #744
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    There is no “begging the question”. The ‘natural world’ consists of the material universe which can be studied and has the potential for empirical verification. And this includes my computer.

    The same cannot be said regarding the hypothesis of a supernatural world. Or are you the proud owner of a supernatural computer?
    Of course you are begging the question. Why call a material universe that can be studied natural? That is no more and an arbitrary assertion. And I certainly would call my computer, at least, extra natural. In that the non-rational forces of nature could not create a computer under its own steam. It take intelligence.

    We can reasonably assume this universe exists; we are part of it and we know we exist. How it originated is a matter of scientific investigation not nonscientific, unverifiable speculation about supernatural origins.
    Again you have zero evidence that previous natural forces created this universe or could.

    Of course we "can call it natural", what else would it be? ALL technology, including the advanced technology of a simulated universe, is grounded in the Laws of Nature as understood by science.
    Why call the laws of nature "natural." What is natural about them?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Of course you are begging the question. Why call a material universe that can be studied natural? That is no more and an arbitrary assertion. And I certainly would call my computer, at least, extra natural. In that the non-rational forces of nature could not create a computer under its own steam. It take intelligence.



    Again you have zero evidence that previous natural forces created this universe or could.



    Why call the laws of nature "natural." What is natural about them?
    Sheesh, seer, again, we call this world natural because that is what we decided to call it. If there is another kind of existence then that is what we would refer to as supernatural. This world doesn't become supernatural just because there might be something about it beyond our ability to observe. We get it, you have an agenda, but this debate isn't helpful to it.

  7. #746
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Sheesh, seer, again, we call this world natural because that is what we decided to call it. If there is another kind of existence then that is what we would refer to as supernatural. This world doesn't become supernatural just because there might be something about it beyond our ability to observe. We get it, you have an agenda, but this debate isn't helpful to it.
    You call it natural without rational justification. It is a mere assertion.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You call it natural without rational justification. It is a mere assertion.
    The supernatural is anything that may exist that can't be defined by the laws of nature. The key word there is nature. The possible existence of the supernatural means beyond nature, distinct from nature.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Nvm
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #749
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    The supernatural is anything that may exist that can't be defined by the laws of nature. The key word there is nature. The possible existence of the supernatural means beyond nature, distinct from nature.
    That is my point Jim, these are arbitrary definitions. Let me ask you - if this universe was created by God in what sense could you call it natural? What would be natural about it?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  11. #750
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is my point Jim, these are arbitrary definitions. Let me ask you - if this universe was created by God in what sense could you call it natural? What would be natural about it?
    OK...I have to admit I am curious as hell. Seer, all definitions are "arbitrary" as has been shown multiple times. So I have to ask, why is it so important to you that we redefine the words "natural" and "supernatural" and what would you like the definitions of those terms to be?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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