I've been Googling for hours now. It's the verse from 1 John 2:19. I've always thought that it was about those who fell away from the faith. But upon reading it again, it looks like it's about antichrists... isn't there a verse about general people?? I feel like I've got the wrong interpretation all this time!
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They're definitely antichrists who had been counted as among John's immediate group, and possibly the Jerusalem Church. Except for passages which refer to falling away as a possibility, I can't think of anything that refers to a specific person or group apostasising.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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The theology of 1 John seems to have a theme of "you're either in Christ or you're not", and polemically, those who are not are antichrists.
Arminians (of which I consider myself one) understandably find this to be an inconvenient verse as at face value, it seems to indicate that apostasy is inherently impossible, and the general Arminian explanation that this only refers to a specific group of defectors strikes me as special pleading. I think the tack of considering it polemically is more promising, but there is still exegetical work to do here, and I haven't made my mind up."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe theology of 1 John seems to have a theme of "you're either in Christ or you're not", and polemically, those who are not are antichrists.
Arminians (of which I consider myself one) understandably find this to be an inconvenient verse as at face value, it seems to indicate that apostasy is inherently impossible, and the general Arminian explanation that this only refers to a specific group of defectors strikes me as special pleading. I think the tack of considering it polemically is more promising, but there is still exegetical work to do here, and I haven't made my mind up.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
is fairly solidly contra the "you either are or are not" idea. The Koine Greek makes it clear that neither sinning nor not sinning is a foregone conclusion. To over translate a tad:
that ye sin not = to make it possible that you do not sin
if any man sin = in the event that any-one might sin1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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1 John 4:3 defines antichrists as those who deny that Jesus had come in the flesh. Possibly connected with the Docetae, or groups which later became the agnostics, who believe, among other things, that the flesh is sinful, therefore Jesus could not have come in the flesh. This heresy tried to associate itself with the early church, as is seen in Paul's letter to Colossians. Even John's Gospel, chapter 1, stresses, "The Word was made flesh...."When I Survey....
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Originally posted by Faber View Post1 John 4:3 defines antichrists as those who deny that Jesus had come in the flesh. Possibly connected with the Docetae, or groups which later became the agnostics, who believe, among other things, that the flesh is sinful, therefore Jesus could not have come in the flesh. This heresy tried to associate itself with the early church, as is seen in Paul's letter to Colossians. Even John's Gospel, chapter 1, stresses, "The Word was made flesh...."
Last edited by Adrift; 06-22-2019, 01:30 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSmall typo there, but they would later go on to develop into Gnostics, not Agnostics .
Long time ago I was doing research on ionized meteor trails in the upper limits of the mesosphere. I wrote to some college professors, and they replied that they got a kick out of the way I misspelled mesopause.When I Survey....
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Originally posted by Faber View Post1 John 4:3 defines antichrists as those who deny that Jesus had come in the flesh. "
This would seem consistent with the view of Plummer (per one of Adrift's footnotes). Craig Blomberg has expressed a similar view on his personal non-academic blog.Last edited by KingsGambit; 06-22-2019, 10:18 PM."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWouldn't this by definition include all non-Christians (other than members of certain cults considered so aberrant that they are grouped as such but who do nonetheless not deny the incarnation)? This seems like further evidence for my theory that all outside the faith are in mind.
This would seem consistent with the view of Plummer (per one of Adrift's footnotes). Craig Blomberg has expressed a similar view on his personal non-academic blog.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostPerhaps ... I'm inclined to think, though, that the perimeter for "every" is established at "prophets."
I forgot that I have I.H. Marshall's commentary on the Epistles of John on my bookshelf. I was curious how he would deal with 2:19, since although he wrote an influential book arguing for the possibility of apostasy (Kept by the Power of God), he was known for his dislike of systematic theology. It turns out he sees it as somewhat ambiguous:
John, however, believes that if they had truly been members of the church they would have remained within it. If they ever had made a confession of faith, it had been an empty one. But a person who makes a genuine confession can be expected to persevere in his faith, although elsewhere John warns his readers against the danger of failure to persevere. It is when a person departs from the church that the falsity of his faith becomes apparent. The last clause is ambiguous in expression, and it is not clear whether John is thinking of the antichrists in particular (NIV) or making the more general point that not all who appear to belong to the church truly belong to it; perhaps he is combining both thoughts."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWouldn't this by definition include all non-Christians (other than members of certain cults considered so aberrant that they are grouped as such but who do nonetheless not deny the incarnation)? This seems like further evidence for my theory that all outside the faith are in mind.
This would seem consistent with the view of Plummer (per one of Adrift's footnotes). Craig Blomberg has expressed a similar view on his personal non-academic blog.
Blomberg, I think clarifies his view in his work, From Pentecost to Patmos: An Introduction to Acts through Revelation
Last edited by Adrift; 06-23-2019, 12:08 AM.
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"Us" refers to the apostles, not Christians as a whole. (See 1 John 1:1-3). It isn't saying necessarily that these heretics never had faith. It is just saying that they hung out with the apostles, but they left in order to teach something different.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View Post"Us" refers to the apostles, not Christians as a whole. (See 1 John 1:1-3). ...Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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