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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Ok you probably heard about congress debating giving reparations to blacks for slavery.


    For the first time in a decade Congress will hold a hearing Wednesday on the subject of reparations for the descendants of slaves in the United States, a topic that has gained traction in the run-up to the 2020 elections.

    The hearing is set for June 19, also known as "Juneteenth," the day when in 1865 former enslaved people in Texas first learned that they had been emancipated two years earlier.

    The House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties is holding the hearing on H.R. 40, which calls for a commission to "study and develop reparation proposals for African-Americans," including a formal apology by the U.S. government "for the perpetration of gross human rights violations and crimes against humanity on African slaves and their descendants."
    https://www.npr.org/2019/06/18/73388...-for-wednesday


    But now....


    Elizabeth Warren Wants Reparations For Same-Sex Couples

    Democratic Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren has added “gay and lesbian couples” to the growing list of groups for whom she would support reparations.

    Citing a tax code that was “discriminatory” against non-heterosexual married couples, Warren tweeted Saturday, “It wasn’t until marriage equality became law that gay & lesbian couples could jointly file tax returns—so they paid more in taxes. Our government owes them more than $50M for the years our discriminatory tax code left them out. We must right these wrongs.”

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/23/e...e-sex-couples/

    I think there is a debt owed in general to blacks in this country over slavery and its legacy, which includes poverty, persecution, crime, and broken families and lives.

    But I am not sure direct monetary payment to individuals makes any sense at all. What is needed, i believe, are programs and actions that push back strongly against that same legacy.

    And even with a sincere effort, i am not sure how you heal the hatred that both feeds and results from racism itself without the kind of change to the heart and soul faith in christ brings. No goverment action can induce peopke to love or to forgive, and this problem cant be solved without massive doses of both.

    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      I think there is a debt owed in general to blacks in this country over slavery and its legacy, which includes poverty, persecution, crime, and broken families and lives.

      But I am not sure direct monetary payment to individuals makes any sense at all. What is needed, i believe, are programs and actions that push back strongly against that same legacy.

      And even with a sincere effort, i am not sure how you heal the hatred that both feeds and results from racism itself without the kind of change to the heart and soul faith in christ brings. No goverment action can induce peopke to love or to forgive, and this problem cant be solved without massive doses of both.

      Jim
      We already have had decades of Affirmative Action which has not healed a thing.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        We already have had decades of Affirmative Action which has not healed a thing.
        Affirmative action has helped, but doesn't deal very well with the root causes and is a bit misguided. It will take a much larger and comprehensive approach to actually change things. You have to change an entire generation, maybe two, both white and black, to actually shift the way this is headed. And there are an awful lot of people that like it as it is that will get in the way.

        Nevertheless, by enslaving a people and then not integrating them into society when they were freed we have created this hellish mess. And while things have improved, the average black person still grows up in an environment of crime, hate, and poverty that will just perpetuate the problems. As a people - we made this mess. And morally, we are responsible for continuing to try to fix it.

        Jim

        BTW: I tend to think the idea of putting 'same-sex' reparations in the same bag as slavery as a bit ridiculous.
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-26-2019, 01:21 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Affirmative action has helped, but doesn't deal very well with the root causes and is a bit misguided. It will take a much larger and comprehensive approach to actually change things.
          So the proper method for fixing something that doesn't deal very well with the root causes is doubling down?
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            So the proper method for fixing something that doesn't deal very well with the root causes is doubling down?
            Did I say what the larger and more comprehensive solution should be?

            Or is that just a way of saying any attempt to fix the problem is necessarily a waste of time?


            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Did I say what the larger and more comprehensive solution should be?

              Or is that just a way of saying any attempt to fix the problem is necessarily a waste of time?


              Jim
              Does not 'larger' imply 'greater quantity' of something similar?

              Frankly, the only solution I see working is Christ in everyone's heart, where in Christ all are equal. Affirmative action inherently divides, and so will never work. No matter how 'comprehensive' it becomes, an 'us vs. them' mentality is inherently built in.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Does not 'larger' imply 'greater quantity' of something similar?

                Frankly, the only solution I see working is Christ in everyone's heart, where in Christ all are equal. Affirmative action inherently divides, and so will never work. No matter how 'comprehensive' it becomes, an 'us vs. them' mentality is inherently built in.
                No - I wasn't proposing an expansion of Affirmative Action. I was just saying a program that has a chance of working will have to be a lot more comprehensive than Affirmative Action ever was at dealing with the root causes.

                You have to lift the people up out of their circumstances, and in many cases out of who they are or have become. That is no simple task. But we have to try. Because we made the mess. The people that were stolen from their land and society and made slaves were not willfully agreeing to what we have now. And the people that were freed and let lose without any education or hope of one into a world where everyone with money and power hated them did't have much responsibility for it either. And it has built and built.

                The civil rights movement has changed a lot. And many more have found their way. But there is still a massive cesspool generating more suffering and poverty that is the legacy of slavery. And somehow we have to try to find ways to remove it from our society.

                We will not eliminate poverty. But we might be able to eliminate poverty being more associated with one race than another. That would be the goal. All people have equal opportunity from day 1. It's a tall order to fill, be slavery and racism is responsible for it, the responsibility to finding ways to fix it falls upon our nation as a whole.

                Of course - there is another situation that is just as bad if not worse, but not as large a group of people - and that is the American Indians.

                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  No - I wasn't proposing an expansion of Affirmative Action. I was just saying a program that has a chance of working will have to be a lot more comprehensive than Affirmative Action ever was at dealing with the root causes.

                  You have to lift the people up out of their circumstances, and in many cases out of who they are or have become. That is no simple task. But we have to try.
                  This will no more address the root cause than AA has. What they need is the desire to get out of their circumstances and the requisite tools to succeed.
                  Because we made the mess.
                  No, that's more on their compatriots who sold them into slavery.
                  The people that were stolen from their land and society and made slaves were not willfully agreeing to what we have now. And the people that were freed and let lose without any education or hope of one into a world where everyone with money and power hated them did't have much responsibility for it either.
                  This a false view of history.
                  And it has built and built.
                  This is egregiously false.
                  The civil rights movement has changed a lot. And many more have found their way. But there is still a massive cesspool generating more suffering and poverty that is the legacy of slavery. And somehow we have to try to find ways to remove it from our society.

                  We will not eliminate poverty. But we might be able to eliminate poverty being more associated with one race than another. That would be the goal. All people have equal opportunity from day 1. It's a tall order to fill, be slavery and racism is responsible for it, the responsibility to finding ways to fix it falls upon our nation as a whole.

                  Of course - there is another situation that is just as bad if not worse, but not as large a group of people - and that is the American Indians.

                  Jim
                  What is needed is a cultural change on the part of the minorities in question. Without that, all the goodwill in the world isn't going to change much.

                  Look, slavery is not a new institution. I don't know of any culture which recovered from it that didn't pick itself up by its own bootstraps. I am also not aware of any other culture which, once freed from slavery, was significantly better off than it was pre-slavery. This leads me to question whether slavery is indeed the root cause here.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    No - I wasn't proposing an expansion of Affirmative Action. I was just saying a program that has a chance of working will have to be a lot more comprehensive than Affirmative Action ever was at dealing with the root causes.

                    You have to lift the people up out of their circumstances, and in many cases out of who they are or have become. That is no simple task. But we have to try. Because we made the mess. The people that were stolen from their land and society and made slaves were not willfully agreeing to what we have now. And the people that were freed and let lose without any education or hope of one into a world where everyone with money and power hated them did't have much responsibility for it either. And it has built and built.

                    The civil rights movement has changed a lot. And many more have found their way. But there is still a massive cesspool generating more suffering and poverty that is the legacy of slavery. And somehow we have to try to find ways to remove it from our society.

                    We will not eliminate poverty. But we might be able to eliminate poverty being more associated with one race than another. That would be the goal. All people have equal opportunity from day 1. It's a tall order to fill, be slavery and racism is responsible for it, the responsibility to finding ways to fix it falls upon our nation as a whole.

                    Of course - there is another situation that is just as bad if not worse, but not as large a group of people - and that is the American Indians.

                    Jim
                    This sounds a lot like trying to blame others for poor life choices. Sorry, but slavery ended over 150 years ago. I nor anyone alive today is responsible nor is giving free money that they did not earn is going to solve anything. Slavery ended 7 generations ago, it’s time people stopped blaming others for their poor life choices because an ancestor of theirs, they never knew, was a slave.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      This sounds a lot like trying to blame others for poor life choices. Sorry, but slavery ended over 150 years ago. I nor anyone alive today is responsible nor is giving free money that they did not earn is going to solve anything. Slavery ended 7 generations ago, it’s time people stopped blaming others for their poor life choices because an ancestor of theirs, they never knew, was a slave.
                      We are all responsible for the situation as it relates to the poverty and crime in the black sections of most cities. After slavery ended there was intense persecution and racist policies and culture that forced poverty and oppression and which only began to lift in the 1970's. And its legacy continues to this day.

                      Jim
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        We are all responsible for the situation as it relates to the poverty and crime in the black sections of most cities. After slavery ended there was intense persecution and racist policies and culture that forced poverty and oppression and which only began to lift in the 1970's. And its legacy continues to this day.

                        Jim
                        Sorry, I was born in the 80’s. Not my responsibility nor the responsibility of my parents, who were children at the time. Like I said, stop living in the past.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Sorry, I was born in the 80’s. Not my responsibility nor the responsibility of my parents, who were children at the time. Like I said, stop living in the past.
                          No a surpising response from you pix.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            No a surpising response from you pix.
                            Sorry, but people need to take responsibility for their own lives and stop blaming others for their failures. My great grandmother grew up dirt poor, right in the middle of the dust bowel. They lived in little more than a dirt floor shack. Now what would her living conditions, nearly 80 years ago, have to do with how her great granddaughter lives today? Nothing, so why are we still blaming others, for events that happened decades ago? Creating a dependent class and telling them they are not good enough to do well without handouts from the white man is why things are how they are today. I’ll pass on 50 years of failed social experiments responsible for the current situation we now find ourselves in.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              We are all responsible for the situation as it relates to the poverty and crime in the black sections of most cities. After slavery ended there was intense persecution and racist policies and culture that forced poverty and oppression and which only began to lift in the 1970's. And its legacy continues to this day.

                              Jim
                              Pure and unadulterated BS, Jim. I am not responsible for any of it.

                              And my dad's family grew up in Appalachia in as poor a community as any blacks, in family of a preacher and with 11 brothers and sisters. He pulled himself out of it by joining the military and even then we were pretty poor growing up on an enlisted man's salary with a mom who was a housewife. I had to pay my way through school myself and wasn't handed any advantages growing up or in school.

                              And your characterization is a slap in the face of every person, black, white, or brown who did the same and worked their way out of poverty and into success.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Estimates - not that I can be sure of their veracity - are that at the height of slavery in the USA, in the most extensive areas of slave-holding, less than two percent of the population were slave owners. If those stats hold up - demands for reparation by people who are for the most part better off than the descendants of those who weren't taken as slaves; those demands being made of people who never owned slaves, and are in all probability don't have ancestors who owned slaves, kind of fall flat.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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