Reparations

[oxmixmudd]

Pure and unadulterated BS, Jim. I am not responsible for any of it.

And my dad's family grew up in Appalachia in as poor a community as any blacks, in family of a preacher and with 11 brothers and sisters. He pulled himself out of it by joining the military and even then we were pretty poor growing up on an enlisted man's salary with a mom who was a housewife. I had to pay my way through school myself and wasn't handed any advantages growing up or in school.

And your characterization is a slap in the face of every person, black, white, or brown who did the same and worked their way out of poverty and into success.

We refers to our nation, andcwe as a nation creted the problem, and we as a nation need to continue to make efforts to fix it. You think about how you had nothing to do with it. What about tge child born into the hell of a crime and drug infested neighborhood? They dont have anything to do withbit either, but they are the ones suffering tge direct consequences of what we as a nation did.

The most ancient question there is: am I my brothers keeper? Or more specifically, what is the lesson of the ancient nation of Israel on the corporate responsibility of the nation and the individual.

Jim

[tabibito]

We refers to our nation, andcwe as a nation creted the problem, and we as a nation need to continue to make efforts to fix it. You think about how you had nothing to do with it. What about tge child born into the hell of a crime and drug infested neighborhood? They dont have anything to do withbit either, but they are the ones suffering tge direct consequences of what we as a nation did.

The most ancient question there is: am I my brothers keeper? Or more specifically, what is the lesson of the ancient nation of Israel on the corporate responsibility of the nation and the individual.

Jim

None whatever, after the offending generation. The current generation can be held to account for the sins of ancestors only if it perpetuates the actions of the ancestors.

[Sparko]

We refers to our nation, andcwe as a nation creted the problem, and we as a nation need to continue to make efforts to fix it. You think about how you had nothing to do with it. What about tge child born into the hell of a crime and drug infested neighborhood? They dont have anything to do withbit either, but they are the ones suffering tge direct consequences of what we as a nation did.

The most ancient question there is: am I my brothers keeper? Or more specifically, what is the lesson of the ancient nation of Israel on the corporate responsibility of the nation and the individual.

Jim

Nobody alive in this nation had anything to do with slavery, Jim. And we as a nation DID do something about it. We went to war with ourselves to free the slaves and gave them citizenship and over the years gave them equality.

At this point in time, they have every right and freedom that any other American has and even some additional advantages like affirmative action. There are white kids growing up in crime infested slums too, Jim. Why aren't you complaining about them?


Here's a novel idea: Why don't we treat people as individuals and help them like Christ did and not treat them as a "race" - that way we help all of the poor children, not just black ones because their great-great-great grandparents might have been slaves.

[oxmixmudd]

None whatever, after the offending generation. The current generation can be held to account for the sins of ancestors only if it perpetuates the actions of the ancestors.

I see. And the current poverty and crime ridden environments of the population subject to centuries of abuse all the way from the foundation of our nation until at least the 1970's with consequences to this day would not constitute a perpetuation of the sins of our ancestors?

So what you are saying is that if my grandfather locked up some people in a tower, I could walk by that tower every day and hear the cries of their children and not bear even an ounce of responsibility to try to get them out?


Jim

[Sparko]

I see. And the current poverty and crime ridden environments of the population subject to centuries of abuse all the way from the foundation of our nation until at least the 1970's with consequences to this day would not constitute a perpetuation of the sins of our ancestors?

So what you are saying is that if my grandfather locked up some people in a tower, I could walk by that tower every day and hear the cries of their children and not bear even an ounce of responsibility to try to get them out?


Jim

What you seem to be saying is that your grandfather locked up their grandfather in the tower, then your grandmother let him out and now you are being sued by his grandchildren who aren't locked in any tower but want to blame you and want you to give them money.

[oxmixmudd]

At this point in time, they have every right and freedom that any other American has and even some additional advantages like affirmative action. There are white kids growing up in crime infested slums too, Jim. Why aren't you complaining about them?

No - they really don't. If you grow up in a neighborhood where you die or join a gang, you have no freedoms. If you grow up hungry every day, or in apartments where the walls are covered in lead paint - it affects your mental development and steals your opportunities. And so on.

There is a legacy that comes from slavery and racism that forces a significant part of the black population to face obstacles like this. They are short on opportunity and long on walls that try to keep them locked into the cycle of poverty and crime, and the reason has nothing to do with their capabilities or their will or their morals - it has to do with the environmental elements that our ancestors, in some cases our own parents or uncles, , and even in some cases our friends and acquaintances, have created for them.

Jim

[tabibito]

Reparations won't even begin to address those issues. They will simply put money into the hands of people who haven't (assuming your assessment is correct) the means to use it to benefit. Programmes aimed at getting children a better chance than their parents had, and giving teens and adults a chance to improve their own prospects will do more, and more effectively, than reparations. Children put into programmes across the board. Adults on a voluntary basis.

[oxmixmudd]

What you seem to be saying is that your grandfather locked up their grandfather in the tower, then your grandmother let him out and now you are being sued by his grandchildren who aren't locked in any tower but want to blame you and want you to give them money.

No, that is not the situation at all, and you should know it. But this sort of thinking is certainly consistent with white nationalist and racist beliefs about the sutuation.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Estimates - not that I can be sure of their veracity - are that at the height of slavery in the USA, in the most extensive areas of slave-holding, less than two percent of the population were slave owners. If those stats hold up - demands for reparation by people who are for the most part better off than the descendants of those who weren't taken as slaves; those demands being made of people who never owned slaves, and are in all probability don't have ancestors who owned slaves, kind of fall flat.

And what percentage ofvthe population allowed that slavery, enforce its laws, and embrace the view that black people were fundamentally inferior to whites.

And what percentage peroetuated those ideas all the way up to the often violent attacks on black people in the 50's and 60's. I was ther my friends. It was nearly EVERYONE.

Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

And what percentage ofvthe population allowed that slavery, enforce its laws, and embrace the view that black people were fundamentally inferior to whites.

And what percentage peroetuated those ideas all the way up to the often violent attacks on black people in the 50's and 60's. I was ther my friends. It was nearly EVERYONE.

Jim

And that had zero to do with today. My Italian and Irish ancestors were treated pretty badly, does that fact have any bearing in 2019?

[Sparko]

No - they really don't. If you grow up in a neighborhood where you die or join a gang, you have no freedoms. If you grow up hungry every day, or in apartments where the walls are covered in lead paint - it affects your mental development and steals your opportunities. And so on.

And that happens to hispanics, asians and whites too, Jim. What about them? It's OK for them to live in slums and poverty because their ancestors weren't slaves?

You are from the south right? Haven't you seen entire trailer parks filled with poor white folk with no future because the only jobs available are in the closed down coal mines?

There is a legacy that comes from slavery and racism that forces a significant part of the black population to face obstacles like this. They are short on opportunity and long on walls that try to keep them locked into the cycle of poverty and crime, and the reason has nothing to do with their capabilities or their will or their morals - it has to do with the environmental elements that our ancestors, in some cases our own parents or uncles, , and even in some cases our friends and acquaintances, have created for them.

Jim

Slavery has nothing to do with black slums or poverty any more. Maybe at one time, but that was 100 years ago. There are plenty of black people who work their way out of poverty just like whites do. I have no problem with giving all poor neighborhoods better schools and education and helping them get grants for college. But that should go for all poor, not just blacks. It should go for poor whites, asians, hispanics, american indians, etc.

Poor is poor.

[Sparko]

No, that is not the situation at all, and you should know it. But this sort of thinking is certainly consistent with white nationalist and racist beliefs about the sutuation.

Jim

under your analogy they would still be slaves. (kept in the tower) - they aren't. Yet they want payment for what their ancestors went through paid by people who didn't do anything to them. And for someone who constantly complains about ad homs, you just implied that I am a white nationalist/racist. shame on you.

[tabibito]

And what percentage ofvthe population allowed that slavery, enforce its laws, and embrace the view that black people were fundamentally inferior to whites.

And what percentage peroetuated those ideas all the way up to the often violent attacks on black people in the 50's and 60's. I was ther my friends. It was nearly EVERYONE.

Jim

Given the wide support provided by many whites - at least among the younger generation of the time - to the freedom riders and Martin Luther King's campaigns (among others), I think that claim is just a little exaggerated.

[oxmixmudd]

under your analogy they would still be slaves. (kept in the tower) - they aren't. Yet they want payment for what their ancestors went through paid by people who didn't do anything to them. And for someone who constantly complains about ad homs, you just implied that I am a white nationalist/racist. shame on you.

No - locking them in the tower does not refer to slavery itself. It refers to their stolen freedoms and rights. And its an analogy for pity sake.

The issue here is that explicit slavery was replaced with institutional and cultural slavery through racism. That was pushed back in the 60's, but it has taken generations to bring the majority of white people to a place where they truly consider black people equal, and even given that reality, there is still a massive cultural and environmental legacy of those centuries of abuse which persists and prevents wealth and power from being equalized across the two communities.

As for implying you are a white nationalist/racist - I knew that is what you might end up concluding - but the reality is you have absorbed a lot of that sort of thinking from the ultra-conservative drivel you read, in part to support you commitment to trump. You can't help it. I know that is not who you are, and I'm not accusing you of being that, but that is just the way it is.

You are, in effect, blaming black people for not having the internal morals and fortitude to bring themselves up out of the environment that dominates their lives. And I'm sorry, that is what white nationalism does, and at it's root is the idea black people are inferior. The reality is ANY people that would have to fight out of the environment that is the legacy of slavery in this country would be floundering, just as they are. And it's because of how horrible that environment is, not because anything is lacking in black people themselves.

Jim

[Sparko]

No - locking them in the tower does not refer to slavery itself. It refers to their stolen freedoms and rights. And its an analogy for pity sake.

you put the descendants in the same situation as the original member. So if you analogy was to slavery, then the descendants were also slaves. If you didn't mean that, then you used a poor analogy. Mine was better. The initial person was locked up in the tower by your ancestor, then freed by another of your ancestors and then the free descendants wanted to blame you for their ancestor's plight and expected recompense for something they did not suffer.

The issue here is that explicit slavery was replaced with institutional and cultural slavery through racism. That was pushed back in the 60's, but it has taken generations to bring the majority of white people to a place where they truly consider black people equal, and even given that reality, there is still a massive cultural and environmental legacy of those centuries of abuse which persists and prevents wealth and power from being equalized across the two communities.

As for implying you are a white nationalist/racist - I knew that is what you might end up concluding - but the reality is you have absorbed a lot of that sort of thinking from the ultra-conservative drivel you read, in part to support you commitment to trump. You can't help it. I know that is not who you are, and I'm not accusing you of being that, but that is just the way it is.

Wow so you weren't calling me a racist, just saying I think like one. Great save there Jim I can't help thinking like a racist. right. I never want to hear you accuse me of using ad homs against you again, you hear? This was very low of you Jim. very low.

You are, in effect, blaming black people for not having the internal morals and fortitude to bring themselves up out of the environment that dominates their lives.

No, in fact I believe they can and do that all the time. YOU are the one acting like they are unable to because they are inferior to poor white people who drag themselves out of poverty. I guess they are not good enough and need your white man's help?

And I'm sorry, that is what white nationalism does, and at it's root is the idea black people are inferior. The reality is ANY people that would have to fight out of the environment that is the legacy of slavery in this country would be floundering, just as they are. And it's because of how horrible that environment is, not because anything is lacking in black people themselves.

Jim

Jim, just shut the hell up. Don't ever accuse me of being a racist or white nationalist again.

You have totally lost it. You complain that people are against you, calling you names and such, but you never see yourself doing the things you claim to despise. You are being a hypocrite. I know you are better than that. It was bad enough when you insinuated that we were not good Christians because we supported Trump, but now you are insinuating I am a freaking Nazi because of "my commitment to Trump" and "I can't help it"

No. Just no. I have had enough of this BS. Get the hell out of my thread.