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Thread: God's Desires

  1. #11
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    God desires us to have free will more than he desires all to be saved.

    As he is all powerful, he could save everyone. But that would either mean 1> He is letting sinners into heaven or 2> he takes away everyone's free will. Neither of those outcomes would be "good" - so the good thing to do would be to allow free will and some people to not be saved by their own choice.

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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    God desires us to have free will more than he desires all to be saved.

    As he is all powerful, he could save everyone. But that would either mean 1> He is letting sinners into heaven or 2> he takes away everyone's free will. Neither of those outcomes would be "good" - so the good thing to do would be to allow free will and some people to not be saved by their own choice.
    I heartily concur with you here! Standard Arminian doctrine explains scripture well here!

    But, Hornet is looking at Calvinistic/Reformed interpretations. Calvinist/Reformed doctrine says that ONLY those whom God regenerates can ever accept Christ as Savior, (Unconditional Election) and if God does regenerate someone, they absolutely WILL accept Christ (Irresistible Grace), and, since under Calvinistic/Reformed Doctrine God's sovereignty means that everything that God wants to happen absolutely DOES happen, regardless of man's free will, (which they don't really believe in) the 2 statements in the OP are at least inconsistent, if not contradictory.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  3. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Depends on the individual, I guess. My guess is that atleast some of them would simply say that they believe that scripture teaches that God desires everyone to be saved, but that He has also unconditionally elected some people to be saved and that they hold those two beliefs despite the apparent inconsistency/tension between those two beliefs, even if they have no way of explaining how they mesh together.

    ...
    That seems consistent with most of the Lutherans with whom I've interacted online. (The Lutherans I know IRL don't really talk theology.) Although there is an online Lutheran source (an individual church, IIRC) that hosts a PDF comparing and contrasting TULIP (Calvinism, of course), SCURF (their understanding of Arminianism) and TUURF (their summary of Lutheran views on soteriology), in my experience Lutherans don't really attempt that sort of systemization.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  5. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    God desires us to have free will more than he desires all to be saved.
    But where is this backed up by Scripture?

    As he is all powerful, he could save everyone. But that would either mean 1> He is letting sinners into heaven or 2> he takes away everyone's free will. Neither of those outcomes would be "good" - so the good thing to do would be to allow free will and some people to not be saved by their own choice.
    But there is a Scriptural case that God has the ultimate decision in who will be saved, the analogies of salvation are passive on our part: new birth, creation, new life, "let there be light"!

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    ... under Calvinistic/Reformed Doctrine God's sovereignty means that everything that God wants to happen absolutely DOES happen, regardless of man's free will, (which they don't really believe in) the 2 statements in the OP are at least inconsistent, if not contradictory.
    PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
    PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

    So God's desires are not frustrated. And I believe there is room within God's will for free choices, but not outside God's will.

    But if God's desires are not frustrated, and if God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), then we may hope that all will be saved.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  8. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  9. #16
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
    PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

    So God's desires are not frustrated. And I believe there is room within God's will for free choices, but not outside God's will.

    But if God's desires are not frustrated, and if God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), then we may hope that all will be saved.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Scripture seems to disagree with you.

    Is 5:3-4: 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard.
    4 What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?

    Jer 3:6-7: 6 The Lord said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? 7 And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

    Jer 3:19-20: 19 “‘I said, How I would set you among my sons, and give you a pleasant land, a heritage most beautiful of all nations. And I thought you would call me, My Father, and would not turn from following me. 20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband, so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel, declares the Lord.’”

    Matt 23:37: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post

    Matt 23:37: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
    ttch. How dared the Biblical authors promote such heresy. It's as bad as claiming that Paul said, "Not the hearers, but the doers of the law will be justified," in Rom 2:13
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But where is this backed up by Scripture?
    1Tim 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Revelation 21:8
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    So obviously God's desire to have all be saved is not fulfilled. Since he is all powerful, and he could force everyone to behave and be saved and he doesn't, it means he values our free will above saving everyone. Simple logic

  12. #19
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
    PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

    So God's desires are not frustrated. And I believe there is room within God's will for free choices, but not outside God's will.

    But if God's desires are not frustrated, and if God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), then we may hope that all will be saved.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    But

    Revelation 21:8
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    Shows that all will NOT be saved.


    Are you a universalist now?

  13. #20
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Is 5:3-4: 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard.
    4 What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?
    "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit." (Isa. 27:6)

    Jer 3:6-7: 6 The Lord said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? 7 And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' " (Rom. 11:25–27)

    Jer 3:19-20: 19 “‘I said, How I would set you among my sons, and give you a pleasant land, a heritage most beautiful of all nations. And I thought you would call me, My Father, and would not turn from following me. 20 Surely, as a treacherous wife leaves her husband, so have you been treacherous to me, O house of Israel, declares the Lord.’”
    "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ " (Ho 1:10)

    Matt 23:37: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
    "I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God." (Zec 8:8)

    And now you need to address the verses above from the Psalms that show that God will accomplish all his desires.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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