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Thread: God's Desires

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    tWebber
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    God's Desires

    There are people who hold that God desires everyone to be saved and that He unconditionally elected some people to be saved, but passed by others. Let me explain what I mean by unconditionally elected. Unconditionally election means that God elects people to salvation by His own choice and not because of some future action they will perform, future decision they will make, or condition they will meet.

    If the following two statements are true, then does this mean that God's desires are frustrated? If God always gets what He wants and His desires are never frustrated, then are those two statements inconsistent with each other?
    • God desires everyone to be saved.
    • God did not elect some people for salvation.
    Last edited by Hornet; 06-25-2019 at 03:13 PM.

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    There are people who hold that God desires everyone to be saved and that He unconditionally elected some people to be saved
    Also known as confessional Lutherans.

  3. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Every Christian should believe that the Bible is the Word of God in written form...and therefore God is trustworthy and that God cannot and will not deceive us. God therefore is our ultimate example of "Good". I would argue that Predestination (I really see no practical difference between single and double predestination) is simply logically incompatible with a "Good" God. The belief that God simply “passes over” some he could have easily saved. (single predestination) Because election to salvation is (supposedly) unconditional and saving grace is (supposedly) irresistible, so, damning them to hell, for his glory I think that truly undermines a belief in God’s ulitimate goodness....

    I also think that is especially true of the belief that God actively “designs, foreordains, and governs” eternal torment for the unbelievers who are (actively) chosen by God, for hell for his glory with no regard to any truly free choices they could make(double predestination)....

    I really don't see any big difference in the two...and yes, God desire's all to be saved and God does not elect some to salvation is inconsistent to say the least.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  5. Amen alaskazimm amen'd this post.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    There are people who hold that God desires everyone to be saved...
    Peter seemed to think so.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Where do we get the idea that God gets everything he wants? Jesus prayed for his cup to be taken away from him, and didn't get what he wanted there.

    I've seen this particular question posed a lot as an argument for universalism. Universalists are good at philosophy because they don't have Scripture to work with.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  8. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Where do we get the idea that God gets everything he wants? Jesus prayed for his cup to be taken away from him, and didn't get what he wanted there.

    I've seen this particular question posed a lot as an argument for universalism. Universalists are good at philosophy because they don't have Scripture to work with.
    If it's God's desire that nobody perish, I think it's obvious that He doesn't always get His desire. That would circumvent our free will, yes?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Also known as confessional Lutherans.
    How would they answer the charge of inconsistency between those beliefs?

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Where do we get the idea that God gets everything he wants? Jesus prayed for his cup to be taken away from him, and didn't get what he wanted there.

    I've seen this particular question posed a lot as an argument for universalism. Universalists are good at philosophy because they don't have Scripture to work with.
    Did Jesus have conflicting desires? On the one hand, He wanted the Father to remove His cup, but on the other hand, He wanted God's will to be done.

    There are people who think that if God does not get everything He wants, then His plan is frustrated and He is weak. They would say that if God gets everything He wants and universalism is false, then God does not desire the salvation of everyone.
    Last edited by Hornet; 06-25-2019 at 09:40 PM.

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    How would they answer the charge of inconsistency between those beliefs?
    Depends on the individual, I guess. My guess is that atleast some of them would simply say that they believe that scripture teaches that God desires everyone to be saved, but that He has also unconditionally elected some people to be saved and that they hold those two beliefs despite the apparent inconsistency/tension between those two beliefs, even if they have no way of explaining how they mesh together.


    I would guess that there are also Lutherans who have different answers to the question, but I'm not aware how those answer would look like.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    When you point out a person's "double-think" the usual response is that the "double-thinking" person will decide that you're a heretic who doesn't appreciate divine mystery.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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