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Thread: God's Desires

  1. #61
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Then why did he punish them?
    As part of bringing them to obedience.

    AFTER men sinned, God put his plan into place to save us. But if Adam and Eve had never sinned and obeyed God, he wouldn't have had to do that.
    Then God's plan to show mercy to all would have failed!

    I believe I already have. Jesus taught against hell and urged people to come to him. Why bother if they had no freedom to choose?
    Because God's command accomplishes its purpose.

    And Paul says it pretty clear in Romans 10...
    Yet these verses do not show that we freely choose. And I note again that the analogies of salvation are passive on our part...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #62
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    As part of bringing them to obedience.
    ???


    Then God's plan to show mercy to all would have failed!
    no because it wouldn't have been needed.

    Because God's command accomplishes its purpose.
    So now you are just going to quite nonsense tautologies as answers to me questions?

    Yet these verses do not show that we freely choose. And I note again that the analogies of salvation are passive on our part...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The fact that not everyone who hears the gospel accepts Jesus as their savior either proves that we do choose freely or that God causes us to choose and others to reject the gospel thereby condemning them to hell.

  3. #63
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yet these verses do not show that we freely choose. And I note again that the analogies of salvation are passive on our part...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


    Joshua 24:15 - But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

    Matt 22:3 - He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

    Mark 8:34 - Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

    John 7:17 - If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

    Heb 3:12-15 - 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  4. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  5. #64
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    No because it wouldn't have been needed.
    You are talking as if God doesn't know the future!

    "For God has shut up all in disobedience [which would include Adam] so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32)

    God acted, he shut up all in disobedience, in order to show mercy.

    Jesus taught against hell and urged people to come to him. Why bother if they had no freedom to choose?
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill
    Because God's command accomplishes its purpose.
    So now you are just going to quite nonsense tautologies as answers to me questions?
    No, Jesus urged, Jesus commanded us to seek his kingdom, in order that people might seek him. God's command fulfills its purpose, that is why Jesus bothered to issue his commands.

    The fact that not everyone who hears the gospel accepts Jesus as their savior either proves that we do choose freely or that God causes us to choose and others to reject the gospel thereby condemning them to hell.
    I believe that God does choose who goes into hell.

    "... does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" (Rom. 9:21-22)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #65
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


    Joshua 24:15 - But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

    Matt 22:3 - He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

    Mark 8:34 - Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

    John 7:17 - If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

    Heb 3:12-15 - 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
    These are all good verses, but where does it say that people have free will? I can interpret the verses commanding a choice as God sending his word to accomplish its purpose, allowing me to hope that all who heard Moses for instance, will indeed choose life, eventually, that they and their children will live.

    I must also point out that all the analogies of salvation are passive on our part! There is no depiction of free will in being born, or in being a new creation, or in being brought from death to life.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #66
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    These are all good verses, but where does it say that people have free will?
    Where does it say Trinity in the Bible? Just because the words are there doesn't negate the meaning of the text.
    I can interpret the verses commanding a choice as God sending his word to accomplish its purpose, allowing me to hope that all who heard Moses for instance, will indeed choose life, eventually, that they and their children will live.
    I think your interpretation has some problems then, because it's clear in the O.T. that Israel again and again didn't choose life but chose to follow after other gods, so, God's command did not accomplish it's purpose. Free will in action...


    I must also point out that all the analogies of salvation are passive on our part! There is no depiction of free will in being born, or in being a new creation, or in being brought from death to life.


    Blessings,
    Lee
    Ummm...you interpret the analogies to be passive, that doesn't make it so.


    It's clear that you believe we are just actors in a play and that everything we do is simply reciting our lines that God has already written for us.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  8. #67
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    You are talking as if God doesn't know the future!

    "For God has shut up all in disobedience [which would include Adam] so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32)

    God acted, he shut up all in disobedience, in order to show mercy.


    No, Jesus urged, Jesus commanded us to seek his kingdom, in order that people might seek him. God's command fulfills its purpose, that is why Jesus bothered to issue his commands.


    I believe that God does choose who goes into hell.

    "... does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" (Rom. 9:21-22)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    OK I am just going to say one final word then leave this alone because you apparently are not open to any other view, no matter how many times the bible contradicts you. Your last verse above even contradicts your position. If God chooses who he is sending to hell, then not everyone is being saved like you believe.

    And if everyone is being saved, then why bother preaching the gospel?

  9. #68
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Where does it say Trinity in the Bible? Just because the words are there doesn't negate the meaning of the text.
    Yet the meaning is that God has to give grace to hear and repent:

    "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt. 29:4)

    I think your interpretation has some problems then, because it's clear in the O.T. that Israel again and again didn't choose life but chose to follow after other gods, so, God's command did not accomplish it's purpose.
    So is this statement false?

    "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
    And do not return there without watering the earth
    And making it bear and sprout,
    And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
    So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
    It will not return to Me empty,
    Without accomplishing what I desire,
    And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa. 55:10-11)

    So I believe hat all may repent when God commands it, that all may choose life, even after death. Then God's desires are not frustrated.

    Ummm...you interpret the analogies to be passive, that doesn't make it so.
    Being born is passive, coming from death to life is passive, new creation is passive, why would God choose such analogies if we choose freely in salvation?

    It's clear that you believe we are just actors in a play and that everything we do is simply reciting our lines that God has already written for us.
    No, I believe there is real freedom within the will of God, and only there.

    "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #69
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    If God chooses who he is sending to hell, then not everyone is being saved like you believe.
    Yet I believe people can repent after death.

    And if everyone is being saved, then why bother preaching the gospel?
    Calvinists get such a question a lot! God uses the means of preaching to bring people into his kingdom, God's command to repent is often given through people. Then God's command fulfills its purpose, and people whom God has called do repent.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. #70
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yet I believe people can repent after death.
    Can you show me one person who repented after death and was let into heaven in the bible?
    Last edited by Sparko; 07-12-2019 at 08:09 AM.

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