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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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God's Desires

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    There are people who hold that God desires everyone to be saved and that He unconditionally elected some people to be saved, but passed by others. Let me explain what I mean by unconditionally elected. Unconditionally election means that God elects people to salvation by His own choice and not because of some future action they will perform, future decision they will make, or condition they will meet.
    Arminians also believe that salvation is granted to humans on the basis of God’s ‘own choice’. Nevertheless, we disagree with Calvinists that God has decided to save humans unconditionally. If God has decided to save persons conditionally, it is not correct to insinuate that God does not save according to his own will or decision, as if humans in some way strong-arm God in the reception or attainment of salvation.

    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    If the following two statements are true, then does this mean that God's desires are frustrated? If God always gets what He wants and His desires are never frustrated, then are those two statements inconsistent with each other?
    • God desires everyone to be saved.
    • God did not elect some people for salvation. [Emphasis added.]
    The two propositions may be better stated thus: (1) ‘God desires the salvation of all persons without exception’ and (2) ‘God has unconditionally elected some humans to salvation’. Stated in this manner, the two propositions are clearly contradictory.

    If, as in Calvinistic thought, God has unconditionally foreordained all that occurs, I am at an utter loss to understand how it could be that God could or would decree his own everlasting frustration.

    In Arminian thought, God does indeed desire the salvation of all humans without exception, but the possibility of this desire being unrealised may be traced to the misuse and abuse of the moral freedom that God has granted persons which was originally intended for the purpose of reflecting his relational and moral likeness.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Does the broader context circumscribe "all?"
      No, I don't think so.

      PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
      PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
      ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

      Ps 115:3 He did everything he chose to do. Nothing about the future here.
      Ps 135:6 God did all that pleased him. Following which is a precis of some of the things he did. Nothing here addresses the future.
      Well, if God did all that pleased him in the past, it would seem to follow that he can do all he pleases in the future. And some translations (the NIV, for instance) translate "does" (present tense here), making this clearly a general statement.

      Isaiah 46:10 I shall do all that I desire. with context restricting "all" to the intention of bringing salvation to Israel.
      Surely not, the context is a general command to review God's works in the past, followed by a description of a predicted event in the future. A predicted event does not circumscribe "all".

      Source: Tyndale OT Commentaries

      My purpose will stand: in a word, the Lord is a God who is truly God. As in creation (Ps. 33:9), so in history, he cannot be thwarted or gainsaid. Even when some particular in human experience bothers his people, it is still the unalterable will of God. Here, the Lord does not conceal or alter the Cyrus plan. He comes as a rapacious victor (bird of prey, 11) under the compulsion of the divine will (purpose). God has spoken (said), God will act (bring about); it is the product of divine wisdom (planned) and backed by divine action (do).

      © Copyright Original Source



      God acts on his desire that all shall have the opportunity to be granted mercy.
      But this is not the language of Romans 11, "God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." (Ro 11:32 NASB)

      God's purpose is quite clear, to show mercy, not to give the opportunity for mercy.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        Pointing to future prophetic (and several as yet to be fulfilled) verses in answer to my specific instances isn't an answer Lee...
        Well, they show that God's desires will not ultimately be frustrated.

        So, I'm really not sure why you think I should address yours any further than I have.
        Well, how is it that these verses do not make a general statement that all of God's desires will be fulfilled?

        PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
        PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
        ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #34
          Yup - God will do what he pleases. It is a matter of evaluating what he pleases ... which is reasonably well described in scripture.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Yes.


            " 'May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.' Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!" (Rom. 11:10–11)

            So more is going on here than meets the eye, I believe we will all be right, and we will all be wrong about eternity.


            Then God experiences some measure of frustration. But Scripture is clear, all of God's desires will be fulfilled ().

            PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
            PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
            ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

            Blessings,
            Lee
            OK now you are just ignoring plain scripture and arguing by quoting other scripture out of context. Romans 11 is talking about a NATION, Israel, and not people. It is talking about Israel coming back into the fold some day. It is not talking about individuals going to hell. Why would Jesus spend so much of his time preaching about hell and how to avoid it, if there was no danger anyone would go there? Why does Revelation talk about those who will be thrown into the lake of fire and be tormented forever?

            You are just ignoring scripture in favor of your own wishful thinking here Lee.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              OK now you are just ignoring plain scripture and arguing by quoting other scripture out of context. Romans 11 is talking about a NATION, Israel, and not people. It is talking about Israel coming back into the fold some day.
              Even if it is talking about a nation, we read "may their backs be bent forever". And yet there is hope.

              Why would Jesus spend so much of his time preaching about hell and how to avoid it, if there was no danger anyone would go there?
              Because there is a danger that people would go there.

              Why does Revelation talk about those who will be thrown into the lake of fire and be tormented forever?
              Why is there hope for those whose backs are to be bent forever? Like I said, I believe we will all be right, and all be wrong, that eternity will be different than anyone imagines.

              As in the cross, where God had been telling us all along about his plan, yet no one guessed it...

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                Even if it is talking about a nation, we read "may their backs be bent forever". And yet there is hope.


                Because there is a danger that people would go there.
                But you are arguing that NOBODY will go there. Not even people who never even read the bible. Not even Hitler. (I had to work Hitler into the conversation )

                So why bother warning anyone? There actually would NOT be any danger anyone would go there according to your belief.

                Why is there hope for those whose backs are to be bent forever? Like I said, I believe we will all be right, and all be wrong, that eternity will be different than anyone imagines.
                Because Israel is God's chosen nation. Paul is saying that there is hope they will return to the one they rejected. As a Nation. It doesn't mean every Jew will be saved. Those that rejected Christ are not saved. But those that turned to him, back then and throughout the time since, are saved. And Revelation seems to indicate that in the end times, the Jews as a people will recognize Jesus as the Messiah and turn back to him. I am sure even then there will be those who don't.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Yup - God will do what he pleases. It is a matter of evaluating what he pleases ... which is reasonably well described in scripture.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    But you are arguing that NOBODY will go there.
                    No, my view is that people will go there, but that they may repent.

                    Because Israel is God's chosen nation. Paul is saying that there is hope they will return to the one they rejected.
                    Yet their backs are to be bent, forever! How to reconcile this, I don't know, but it does seem God gives us reason to believe that all will repent.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      No, my view is that people will go there, but that they may repent.


                      Yet their backs are to be bent, forever! How to reconcile this, I don't know, but it does seem God gives us reason to believe that all will repent.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      Again, the bible disagrees with you. Paul said you die and then fact the judgment. There is no repenting after you die. Also again, Revelation says that their torment lasts forever. And in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, The rich man clearly was repentant in hell and wanted to warn his family and he wasn't let out.

                      You seem stuck on one verse that isn't even about hell but about Israel and ignoring everything else in the bible that contradicts your wishful thinking.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Well, they show that God's desires will not ultimately be frustrated.


                        Well, how is it that these verses do not make a general statement that all of God's desires will be fulfilled?

                        PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
                        PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
                        ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        To me, your doing that "moving the goalposts" thing. To say that God "generally" gets what he desires and God specifically gets what he desires are two different animals. For instance, God always wanted the Nation of Israel to be a nation of Priests for Him to bless the nations of earth...that still hasn't happened, but, He did accomplish in a way, it through Jesus Christ.

                        God says in Ezekiel 22:30-31 That He looked for someone to build up the wall and to stand in the gap so that he would not have to destroy Israel. But, concludes:
                        30b but I found no one. 31 Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads,” declares the Lord God.


                        God clearly did not get what He desired here...someone to stand in the gap for Israel, allow them mercy... so He does what HAS to do.
                        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          There is a matter that needs resolution before "hell is a permanent fate in all cases" can be asserted. There is that whole "until he has repaid" thing that might prevent absolute certainty, but it would depend on whether it is possible to repay the debt. I am satisfied that it isn't possible, based on evaluation of scripture, and nothing advanced to date shows that can be possible. Nonetheless, I'm not ruling out the possibility that something somewhere might call my assessment into doubt.

                          And of Course, LittleJoe does make a valid point when it comes to a general condition having specific exceptions. (which for this argument might work both ways.)
                          Last edited by tabibito; 07-02-2019, 11:06 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            There is a matter that needs resolution before "hell is a permanent fate in all cases" can be asserted. There is that whole "until he has repaid" thing that might prevent absolute certainty, but it would depend on whether it is possible to repay the debt. I am satisfied that it isn't possible, based on evaluation of scripture, and nothing advanced to date shows that can be possible. Nonetheless, I'm not ruling out the possibility that something somewhere might call my assessment into doubt.

                            And of Course, LittleJoe does make a valid point when it comes to a general condition having specific exceptions. (which for this argument might work both ways.)
                            Well the bible is pretty clear that hell is eternal punishment and that some people will end up there.


                            Daniel 12:1-2

                            Matthew 18:6-9

                            Matthew 25:31-46

                            2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

                            Jude 7

                            Revelation 14:9-11

                            Revelation 20:10, 14-15

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I'm not arguing otherwise. Pending something substantial, I do (as already stated) accept that there is no get out of hell card available after death.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Well the bible is pretty clear that hell is eternal punishment and that some people will end up there.


                                Daniel 12:1-2

                                Matthew 18:6-9

                                Matthew 25:31-46

                                2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

                                Jude 7

                                Revelation 14:9-11

                                Revelation 20:10, 14-15
                                I hesitate to go as far as you on this....But, I think this gets a bit away from the OP so, I'll refrain from commenting any further here. Maybe open a new thread for us to discuss it in?
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                                Comment

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