God's Desires

[lee_merrill]

To me, your doing that "moving the goalposts" thing. To say that God "generally" gets what he desires and God specifically gets what he desires are two different animals. For instance, God always wanted the Nation of Israel to be a nation of Priests for Him to bless the nations of earth...that still hasn't happened, but, He did accomplish in a way, it through Jesus Christ.

No, I meant by "a general statement" that we have a statement that is true in all circumstances, that God's desires are ultimately fulfilled.

God says in Ezekiel 22:30-31 That He looked for someone to build up the wall and to stand in the gap so that he would not have to destroy Israel. But, concludes:

30b but I found no one. 31 Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads,” declares the Lord God.

God clearly did not get what He desired here...someone to stand in the gap for Israel, allow them mercy... so He does what HAS to do.

That's a good point, now I would reply that this is like Ezekiel 18:23. "And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you." That is, that God's desires are not being frustrated even when he turns to wrath.

Blessings,
Lee

[NorrinRadd]

We know that God explicitly commanded that murder and stealing, among many other things, not be done.

We know that all those things God commanded not be done, ARE done.

ISTM that any attempt to reconcile these undeniable facts is unprovable speculation that will never satisfy everyone.

[lee_merrill]

We know that God explicitly commanded that murder and stealing, among many other things, not be done.

We know that all those things God commanded not be done, ARE done.

But what is the purpose of the law?

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Rom. 5:20)

And then what is God's purpose?

"... but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 5:20–21)

So God's purpose that people not sin will ultimately be fulfilled, if all may repent.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

God desires that we don't sin. Yet we do.

[lee_merrill]

God desires that we don't sin. Yet we do.

Yet is sinning part of God's plan?

"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Rom. 11:32–33)

So the answer may be complex, and beyond our thoughts and ways.

Blessings,
Lee

[NorrinRadd]

If God tells us not to murder but in actuality desires that some *do* murder, He's a capricious sociopath.

[lee_merrill]

If God tells us not to murder but in actuality desires that some *do* murder, He's a capricious sociopath.

No, he desires to show mercy...

Blessings,
Lee

[NorrinRadd]

If you tell tell your child not to poke his sister in the eye with an ice pick, but in actuality desire that he *does* blind her just so that you can show mercy by not punishing him...

[The Remonstrant]

We know that God explicitly commanded that murder and stealing, among many other things, not be done.

We know that all those things God commanded not be done, ARE done.

ISTM [It seems to me] that any attempt to reconcile these undeniable facts is unprovable speculation that will never satisfy everyone.

If God has created a world in which moral creatures are able to exercise a measure of contra-causal freedom to choose for or against God and his ways (expressed in the form of divine commandments, laws, and/or prohibitions), the potential for contradicting or rebelling against the desire(s) of God the Creator remains. When exhaustive divine determinism is denied, whilst the existential problem of evil is surely not alleviated, the theoretical difficulties attending the co-existence of the goodness of an all-powerful God and the present ongoingness of sin need not be despaired of as wholly irresolvable in the light of the judgement to come.

[Sparko]

Yet is sinning part of God's plan?

"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Rom. 11:32–33)

So the answer may be complex, and beyond our thoughts and ways.

Blessings,
Lee

So was God lying when he told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree Knowledge?

Did he desire them to eat from the tree while telling them not to?

Or did he KNOW they would disobey him despite his desire for them to obey and make his plans accordingly?

[lee_merrill]

If you tell tell your child not to poke his sister in the eye with an ice pick, but in actuality desire that he *does* blind her just so that you can show mercy by not punishing him...

Well, "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Ro 5:20), and God bears sin and suffering, in order to show mercy. So your analogy is flawed, if God tells us not to sin against him, yet his plan is for sin to first occur, so then he can show us mercy.

"Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight..." (Psalm 51:4)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

So was God lying when he told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree Knowledge?

No, if he knew they would one day be obedient.

Did he desire them to eat from the tree while telling them not to?

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Ro 5:20), it was part of God's plan for Adam to sin, and though the Lord didn't desire Adam to sin per se, his desire was to show mercy to him, he desired the result even of that sin.

Or did he KNOW they would disobey him despite his desire for them to obey and make his plans accordingly?

And experience some measure of frustration? But God cannot be frustrated...

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

No, if he knew they would one day be obedient.

What does that mean? He wasn't obedient. He ate from the tree.

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..." (Ro 5:20), it was part of God's plan for Adam to sin, and though the Lord didn't desire Adam to sin per se, his desire was to show mercy to him, he desired the result even of that sin.

That is talking about the Law he gave Moses. LONG after Adam and Eve sinned. If they hadn't sinned, there would be no Law.

And experience some measure of frustration? But God cannot be frustrated...

Blessings,
Lee

Why would be feel frustrated? He knew the future and planned for it. If you have two conflicting desires, the stronger one always wins out. You may desire to sin, but your desire to please God is stronger so you don't sin. Are you frustrated? Or are you happy you obeyed God? God can have conflicting desires too. One to have a sinless universe and one to have creatures that have free will and choose Him. By giving us free will and allowing us to sin, he allows some of us to choose him and thereby in the end will have his sinless universe. So God can desire everyone be saved, but also desire that we freely choose him, which means some will freely NOT choose him. He is not frustrated.

[lee_merrill]

What does that mean? He wasn't obedient. He ate from the tree.

I meant if God knew they would eventually be obedient.

That is talking about the Law he gave Moses. LONG after Adam and Eve sinned. If they hadn't sinned, there would be no Law.

This could however, apply to all laws, and to the first commandment, I believe it does:

"For God has shut up all in disobedience [which would include Adam] so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32)

So God can desire everyone be saved, but also desire that we freely choose him, which means some will freely NOT choose him. He is not frustrated.

I agree that God is not frustrated! But I again must ask for your Scripture verses to show that God gives us freedom to choose him. All the analogies of Scripture that I can think of are passive on our part, such as being born again.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

I meant if God knew they would eventually be obedient.

Then why did he punish them?

This could however, apply to all laws, and to the first commandment, I believe it does:

"For God has shut up all in disobedience [which would include Adam] so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32)

Yeah. AFTER men sinned, God put his plan into place to save us. But if Adam and Eve had never sinned and obeyed God, he wouldn't have had to do that. And showing mercy to all doesn't mean saving all. It means that salvation is available to all.

I agree that God is not frustrated! But I again must ask for your Scripture verses to show that God gives us freedom to choose him. All the analogies of Scripture that I can think of are passive on our part, such as being born again.

Blessings,
Lee

I believe I already have. Jesus taught against hell and urged people to come to him. Why bother if they had no freedom to choose? And Paul says it pretty clear in Romans 10:

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.