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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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God's Desires

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
    PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

    So God's desires are not frustrated. And I believe there is room within God's will for free choices, but not outside God's will.

    But if God's desires are not frustrated, and if God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), then we may hope that all will be saved.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment

    • #17
      ttch. How dared the Biblical authors promote such heresy. It's as bad as claiming that Paul said, "Not the hearers, but the doers of the law will be justified," in Rom 2:13
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment

      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        But where is this backed up by Scripture?

        Comment

        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
          PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

          So God's desires are not frustrated. And I believe there is room within God's will for free choices, but not outside God's will.

          But if God's desires are not frustrated, and if God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), then we may hope that all will be saved.

          Blessings,
          Lee

          Comment

          • #20
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            Is 5:3-4: 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard.
            4 What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?
            "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit." (Isa. 27:6)

            "I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God." (Zec 8:8)

            And now you need to address the verses above from the Psalms that show that God will accomplish all his desires.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment

            • #21
              While accepting those who do what is right. Perhaps you would care to point out which part of those verses says that God will accomplish all his desires.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment

              • #22
                But this has nothing to do with showing that God desires free will more! What about all the analogies of salvation that are passive on our part?

                And may all be saved?

                "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32)

                Are you a universalist now?
                A soft universalist, I believe we are given reason to hope that all will repent, as opposed to a hard universalist, who says that all will certainly repent.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment

                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  While accepting those who do what is right. Perhaps you would care to point out which part of those verses says that God will accomplish all his desires.
                  Well, these verses show that in each instance, his desire is fulfilled, and then there are verses that state this in general:

                  PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
                  PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
                  ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    But this has nothing to do with showing that God desires free will more! What about all the analogies of salvation that are passive on our part?

                    And may all be saved?

                    "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32)


                    A soft universalist, I believe we are given reason to hope that all will repent, as opposed to a hard universalist, who says that all will certainly repent.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    You already know that God desires all to be saved right? And Revelation and other verses say that some will be sent to hell (lake of fire) where the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever.

                    1. Either God can't make all of his desires come true or
                    2. His desire for us to freely choose is greater than his desire for all to be saved.

                    Either way the verses destroy your "soft universalism" because not all will be saved.

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Does the broader context circumscribe "all?"
                      Ps 115:3 He did everything he chose to do. Nothing about the future here.
                      Ps 135:6 God did all that pleased him. Following which is a precis of some of the things he did. Nothing here addresses the future.
                      Isaiah 46:10 I shall do all that I desire. with context restricting "all" to the intention of bringing salvation to Israel.

                      For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32)
                      God acts on his desire that all shall have the opportunity to be granted mercy.

                      So far, nothing supports the claim that God will ACT on ALL his desire in EVERY circumstance.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 06-28-2019, 02:36 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Your verses do not address the issue(s) of my verses...God did not get what He wanted in those specific verses. Pointing to future prophetic (and several as yet to be fulfilled) verses in answer to my specific instances isn't an answer Lee...

                        So, I'm really not sure why you think I should address yours any further than I have.
                        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          You already know that God desires all to be saved right? And Revelation and other verses say that some will be sent to hell (lake of fire) where the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever.

                          1. Either God can't make all of his desires come true or
                          2. His desire for us to freely choose is greater than his desire for all to be saved.

                          Either way the verses destroy your "soft universalism" because not all will be saved.
                          Can there be different definitions of desire? God commands everyone to repent and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I don't know if that command can be considered a kind of desire.

                          Can there be different views of free will? Some people think that free will means to act according to one's desires, not necessarily having the absolute ability to choose otherwise.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                            Can there be different definitions of desire? God commands everyone to repent and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I don't know if that command can be considered a kind of desire.
                            Old Testament:
                            Ezekiel 18: 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone
                            Ezekiel 33:11 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live
                            New Testament
                            2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is ... not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
                            1 Timothy 2:3 ... it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (I'm fairly sure someone already cited this one)


                            Can there be different views of free will? Some people think that free will means to act according to one's desires, not necessarily having the absolute ability to choose otherwise.
                            Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters:
                            Isaiah 65:12 [[Thus says the Lord ...]] when I spoke, you did not listen, but you did what was evil in my eyes and chose what I did not delight in. (also 66:4)
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment

                            • #29

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                You already know that God desires all to be saved right?
                                Yes.

                                And Revelation and other verses say that some will be sent to hell (lake of fire) where the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever.
                                1. Either God can't make all of his desires come true or
                                2. His desire for us to freely choose is greater than his desire for all to be saved.
                                Then God experiences some measure of frustration. But Scripture is clear, all of God's desires will be fulfilled ().

                                PS 115:3 Our God is in heaven; all he pleases, he has done.
                                PS 135:6 All that pleases the Lord, he has done, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
                                ISA 46:10 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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