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Thread: Another Credible Rape Claim Against Trump....

  1. #131
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    No rogue. He did support them - implicitly. But you have to understand the need to never give groups like that any sort of legitimacy - implicit or otherwise - to understand how his statements were an endorsement.

    Basically it's like this: If a Neo-Nazi or a White-supremacist can hear your comments and think to themselves - "hey - maybe this guy is secretly with us", then you have failed on that front. And Trump did that in spades with Charlottesville, and he's done it repeatedly during his campaign and his presidency. And that is why he is rightfully called out one it each time he does it.

    Jim
    Time for a little whataboutism.... Obama did what you are describing every time he weighed in on a racial conflict without getting the facts. The militant blacks could think "hey, this guy is with us!". You condemn that, too, yes?
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

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  3. #132
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    ďI think there is blame on both sides,Ē the president said in a combative exchange with reporters at Trump Tower in Manhattan. ďYou had a group on one side that was bad. You had a group on the other side that was also very violent. Nobody wants to say that. Iíll say it right now.Ē

    Mr. Trump defended those gathered in a Charlottesville park to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee. ďIíve condemned neo-Nazis. Iíve condemned many different groups,Ē he said. ďNot all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch.Ē


    Read the points that Trump made WITHOUT reading the commentary by the reporter.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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  5. #133
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Here's the "very fine people" statement in context:

    If you reported it accurately, you would say that the neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville. Excuse me. They didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis. You had some very bad people in that group. You also had some very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

    Later in the same press conference, he said:

    You had people and i'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists. They should be condemned totally. You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. The press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group too.

    https://www.vox.com/2017/8/15/161540...harlottesville

    Anybody who could think that Trump was directly or indirectly calling white supremacists "very fine people" is either deceived, or being deceptive themselves.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. Amen Cow Poke, Littlejoe, Raphael, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #134
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You had people and i'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists. They should be condemned totally.
    .
    For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

    Perhaps he should have been less ambiguous.

    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

  8. #135
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Sorry you see it that way pix.

    Jim
    Iím sorry that youíre basically becoming Jorge or JM, when it comes to anything to do with Trump. Iíve always enjoyed your pursuit of Ďwhat is trueí no matter what we would personally like to be true and your stuff about JMís latest geocentric nonsense Iíve always found as a great science lesson. Too bad youíve basically left that behind. For example, Puerto Ricoís biggest issue is its government let the islands roads and power grid rot for the past 20 years. Thereís reports, dating from the late Bush/ early Obama years stating the problems and saying a major hurricane would devastate the island. These reports were ignored and the problem got worse. When a storm finally took out the roads and power, the press didnít care and just wants to Ďget Trumpí even if it means flat ignoring this key detail. Much of your Ďevidenceí is a similar story. You ignoring details that you donít like, to support your Ďget Trumpí mentality.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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  10. #136
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Trump's behavior was appalling although without it the majority of Americans would have remained unaware of just how shaky Ford's claims were since the MSM was taking extraordinary steps to avoid covering that in any sort of meaningful way. It wasn't until Trump blasted her in a Tweet which listed a number of the holes in her story that the MSM started covering it. And they only did so in order to show what a mean old ogre Trump was (quoting all the nasty things he said). IIRC, there was a chart showing support for Ford and opposition to Kavanaugh changing dramatically in the week or so after his tweet with many experts attributing the change to Trump's exposing the problems in her allegations as the reason.
    I'd like to see that chart. It seemed to me that Ford's claims sounded shaky from the start, and most people felt that way, and that support for Kavanaugh seemed on pretty firm ground from the start, and continued that way. I don't remember Trump turning things around with a Tweet, but maybe my perception is skewed by hanging in different circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Here's the "very fine people" statement in context:

    If you reported it accurately, you would say that the neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville. Excuse me. They didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis. You had some very bad people in that group. You also had some very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

    Later in the same press conference, he said:

    You had people and i'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists. They should be condemned totally. You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. The press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group too.

    https://www.vox.com/2017/8/15/161540...harlottesville

    Anybody who could think that Trump was directly or indirectly calling white supremacists "very fine people" is either deceived, or being deceptive themselves.
    I noticed that there has been a bit of historical revisionism since the event. As I understood it, the event labeled itself as a Unite the Right Rally, and most people at the time thought of it as just that...a sort of right wing rally that might have been triggered by the moving of Civil War statues, but that was about uniting right-wing citizens in general. I thought it was always understood that there were going to be some bad apples there, but that's common for any political turn out. You're going to have wackjobs at a unite the Unite the Left Rally as well. Generally speaking, it didn't seem it was intended to be a racist/neo-Nazi event. It was only some time after the tragic events of the rally that the full representation and agenda of those who initiated the rally seemed to come to light. That it was actually created by white supremacists, who very likely hoodwinked your regular right-winged American into supporting something they likely never would have had they known who all initiated it. If I had to guess, Trump was going by that understanding of the event...that it was a general right-wing rally that had a few nuts in it, and that those protesting it also had a few nuts.

    The problem with Trump, as demonstrated in the quotes above, is that he's absolutely horrendous at getting his point across. He can't seem to talk without interrupting his train of thought with another thought, and it waters down whatever point he's trying to make. It's a wonder to me how he was ever successful in business. He's just lousy at expressing his point, and so, it's often missed. That's not a defense of Trump, by the way. I think it's bad that the leader of the free world has a problem communicating what he needs to communicate. He needs to fire his speech writer, and then stick to the script.
    Last edited by Adrift; 06-30-2019 at 10:14 AM.

  11. #137
    tWebber
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    As someone who actually investigates sexual assaults for a living (I did nothing but these cases for several years), I thought I'd give some of my initial impressions based on an interview with E. Jean Carroll on The Daily (transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/p...owTranscript=1). Also, several people in this thread are arguing for or against automatically believing rape victims when the make an accusation. The correct answer is, you don't do either. You peg that Belief-O-Meter at Neutral, and you gather information and let the needle on the Belief-O-Meter move wherever it goes. Usually, the woman's story alone is enough to send you in the right direction (not always, and you'd can't charge just because they told a good story, but well ya'll know what I mean).

    Please keep in mind, I'm going to list red flags only. This means these are things which are problematic to my believing her story, but I'm not making any assertions about probable cause. If I was interviewing this woman, the interview would be a lot longer and I'd have the opportunity to ask questions (and her answers to those unasked questions may help me understand her experience). These are my thoughts right after 'interviewing' her (in this case, listening to the interview), what I, were I investigating her statements, would be thinking to myself (and usually only expressing to colleagues). It's important to keep in mind that decisions shouldn't be made without corroboration of the information provided.

    -The book deal. As far as I'm aware she hasn't filed a police report, but she's promoting a book about it? Also, she seems to be working in the field. She's interviewing women and writing about the Me Too movement. Book deal is a HUGE red flag. Most victims I deal with are extremely embarrassed. I've lost solid cases because at some point in the court process, the victim decided they would not testify. They're so reluctant to talk publicly about it, that they're willing to let their rapist go free just to avoid talking about it openly.

    -To summarize, she bumps into Trump at a clothing store. He recognizes her as the lady with an advice show and asks for help buying a gift. They go to the lingerie section. She says "He says, it looks like it would fit you. I said no, it goes with your eyes. And he ó there was a little bit of banter back and forth, which I was loving, and I was laughing, and he went like this towards the dressing room. And Iím thinking, I am actually laughing out loud, thinking, Iím going to make him put this bodysuit over his pants. That is the scheme. And Iím thinking, itís going to be the funniest thing I have ever seen in my ó I have got a picture in my head as weíre walking, him going like this and putting it on. Thatís what Iím thinking. And we walk in the dressing room. " I'm sorry, but you're laughing and flirting (nothing wrong with that) while picking out lingerie, he motions for her to go into the dressing room. They go in together, and she seems to think it's so she can make him put on a lingerie bodysuit over his pants? This seems really odd. It's like they went into the dressing room for a different reason, and she has offered a sanitized and innocent reason. Listen, I don't care why they went into the dressing room. If she said they went in there to have sex, then he got rough with her and raped her --then ok. But this is odd. And she doesn't say she vocalized the whole bodysuit-over-pants thing, so...why did Trump think they were going into the dressing room together? It's worth considering because a criminal act requires criminal intent.

    -She minimizes the act of penetration (I'll leave the graphic detail out, check the transcript if you're curious). This sometimes happens with rape victims, but I've seen it more often with bogus rape claims. Generally, when you finally get a victim to say something about the actual act, they don't minimize it. They just state it happened and move on. It's usually like pulling teeth to get them to add detail.

    -Scant allegation of force. I mean she isn't offering many facts that allow one to conclude he used force. There are some, but not many. An element of the crime of rape is "by force and against the victim's will". Specifically, she says she tried to push him away. Then later she says "I may have tried to hit him with my purse, I don’t know. I don’t know what I did with his hand. I have no idea." The way she phrases that is a problem. I'll skip the reasons why, but the 'may' is a red flag regarding the one statement. She talks some about trying to stomp his feet and getting her knee up. She doesn't say anything about telling him 'no' or shouting for help. This is an area of her story that really needs clearing up. I'd want a lot more information, but we're on shaky ground.

    -After the encounter, we learn she had a phone in her purse. She uses that phone to call her friend, and when she does, she's laughing. She tells her friend all about it while laughing, and her friend has to convince her she's been raped. The way they're talking about that initial disclosure to her friend, it's like she'm more concerned that just had sex with DONALD TRUMP than with the fact that she was raped. It's like the idea of her being a rape victim hasn't occurred to her. This is extremely concerning to me. I've never met an ADULT rape victim in my life that didn't immediately feel victimized after it happened. They didn't need to be told they were raped, they knew it. Perhaps there are some psychological, social, or substance related issues specific to this woman's situation that could mitigate this or even completely explain it, but it would have to be pretty convincing.

    -Also, she says she's been sexually assaulted by 20 different people. This is possible, but statistically unlikely. I'd question her understanding of topics like consent and assault. I would never have believed it without seeing it first hand, but I've ran into many adult women of average intelligence who tell me they've been raped -- and then don't describe a sexual assault. Instead, they explain a sexual encounter in which the did everything the man wanted to do (without force or coercion) but maintain they were raped because, in their minds, they didn't really want to do it. Even though they didn't express that thought in any way.
    Last edited by myth; 06-30-2019 at 10:26 AM.
    "We see unmistakably the sort of universe in which we have all along been living, and must come to terms with it. If we had foolish un-Christian hopes about human culture, they are now shattered. If we thought we were building up a heaven on earth, if we looked for something that would turn the present world from a place of pilgrimage into a permanent city satisfying the soul of man, we are disillusioned, and not a moment too soon." - C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

  12. #138
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Time for a little whataboutism.... Obama did what you are describing every time he weighed in on a racial conflict without getting the facts. The militant blacks could think "hey, this guy is with us!". You condemn that, too, yes?
    Yes I would, and did, except not here. I was not posting in civics when Obama was president.


    Jim
    OK - maybe there are 'some' friends

  13. #139
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    In that regard, Trump demonstrated quite clearly his ability to 'play' the media.
    It made me reevaluate my stance of wanting him to please put his phone down and stop tweeting

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  14. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  15. #140
    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    The problem with Trump, as demonstrated in the quotes above, is that he's absolutely horrendous at getting his point across. He can't seem to talk without interrupting his train of thought with another thought, and it waters down whatever point he's trying to make. It's a wonder to me how he was ever successful in business. He's just lousy at expressing his point, and so, it's often missed. That's not a defense of Trump, by the way. I think it's bad that the leader of the free world has a problem communicating what he needs to communicate. He needs to fire his speech writer, and then stick to the script.
    I think this sums it up well. Sometimes I'll read a transcript of something he said, and just think, "...what?"
    Hofstadter's Law: It will always take longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

  16. Amen Adrift, Raphael, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.

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