This Day I Have Begotten Thee

[Senetof]

Jesus is referred to as God's only begotten Son in many places, yet none of these passages have anything to do with his birth to Mary.
Acts 13 32-33...And we declare unto you glad tidings, how the promise which was made unto the fathers,
God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again, as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee. What day is this day?
Hebrews 1 4-5...Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they,
For unto which angel said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten thee. Again, What day is this day referring to....the day of resurrection.
When Jesus was born to Mary, who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was twelve who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was thirty who could be saved?...no one
Only the resurrected Jesus can take away our sin.
John 3-16...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Only the resurrected Jesus, the begotten Jesus, begotten on the day of resurrection can save.

[Harfelugan]

What day is this day referring to....the day of resurrection.
When Jesus was born to Mary, who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was twelve who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was thirty who could be saved?...no one
Only the resurrected Jesus can take away our sin.
Only the resurrected Jesus, the begotten Jesus, begotten on the day of resurrection can save.

Excellant ! Rarely do I see so much condensed into such small content . Where can one begin without falling into a hole of your chosing upon any answer . Even a perfect lure for a topic . Try a few more leaves on top next time .

[Smokering]

When Jesus was born to Mary, who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was twelve who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was thirty who could be saved?...no one
Only the resurrected Jesus can take away our sin.

So nobody before Christ's resurrection was saved? Yet Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration. Were they not saved? How about Abraham, Moses, Ruth and Boaz, Isaac, King David and Solomon?

I think you're making a mistake in confusing belief in Christ, with the temporal occurrence of Christ's death and resurrected. Under the Old Covenant, salvation was through faith in the Messiah--just like under the New Covenant, for 'there is no other name by which men can be saved'.

I realise this is tangential to the main thrust of your post, but it's worth a mention nonetheless.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Jesus is referred to as God's only begotten Son in many places, yet none of these passages have anything to do with his birth to Mary.
Acts 13 32-33...And we declare unto you glad tidings, how the promise which was made unto the fathers,
God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again, as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee. What day is this day?
Hebrews 1 4-5...Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they,
For unto which angel said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day I have begotten thee. Again, What day is this day referring to....the day of resurrection.
When Jesus was born to Mary, who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was twelve who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was thirty who could be saved?...no one
Only the resurrected Jesus can take away our sin.
John 3-16...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Only the resurrected Jesus, the begotten Jesus, begotten on the day of resurrection can save.

I'm not sure where you're wanting to take all this. I agree with you that the Bible - and more specifically texts that emerged from a generally Pauline sphere of influence - teach that Jesus was begotten the Son of God and the firstborn of the new creation on his resurrection and ascension. I don't agree with your comments about people not being able to be saved before this - see Smokering's comments - but you are correct nonetheless that the declaration of Jesus' divine sonship in Hebrews 1:5 occured at his ascension - that is made clear from verse 3.

I also agree with you that there is no direct scriptural indication, anywhere, that Jesus was begotten as the Son of God when he was born of Mary (i.e. at that very moment). However, you could argue that it is implicit in the account of Jesus' conception and birth, and explicit at his baptism (e.g. Mt. 3:17), that Jesus was already in a sonship relationship with the Father. So the Father-Son relationship either had to be an eternal preexistent one, or it had to have come into being some time well before the resurrection. Indeed, Jesus constantly referred to himself as the "Son of God" and I don't think you can dissociate this from his sonship in general. But I think it's likely that all of these references to Jesus being the Son of God relate to his eternal status as the eternally begotten Son of God, and not to his birth from Mary.

But I think you have misunderstood John 3:16, because the author of John has a radically different perspective to Pauline Christianity. John 1:18 makes clear, I think, that the begetting of Jesus as God's Son is eternal and prior to his incarnation. This is especially so if you accept, as I do and most textual scholars do, the reading "only begotten God".

So we have the following summary of the evidence:

(a) Jesus was begotten the Son of God at his resurrection in some sense (attested especially within Pauline Christianity)
(b) Jesus is eternally begotten the Son of God (attested especially within Johannine Christianity)

Theologically, we can synthesize this data by saying that both are true. Indeed, the begetting as the Son of God in his humanity at the resurrection was patterned on his status as eternal Son of God in his divinity. In other words, the pattern established in his divine nature is patterned in his human nature.

As I said, I'm not sure where you're intending for this to go, but if it's where I think you might be headed, I think you are committing the classic fallacy of assuming that either the one or the other must be the case, even though the Bible teaches both.

[Senetof]

Harfelugan writes...Even a perfect lure for a topic.

Response- Considering the original post was made 3 years ago you are being far too generous with your accolade.

And you as the first respondent have addressed nothing in the post, an approach used by many on these boards.

Harfelugan writes...Rarely do I see so much condensed into such small content.

Response- I am always suspicious of people that need hundreds of words to explain the twenty or thirty words usually found in a couple of scriptures.

Harfelugan warns...Where can one begin without falling into a hole of your chosing upon any answer.

Response- I suppose it would look like a hole if you did not see the questions as compatible with ones preconceived conclusions.

[Senetof]

Smokering writes... So nobody before Christ's resurrection was saved? Yet Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration. Were they not saved? How about Abraham, Moses, Ruth and Boaz, Isaac, King David and Solomon?

Response-1Corinthians 15: 17-18 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

[Senetof]

H Bogart writes... I'm not sure where you're wanting to take all this.

Response- I cannot and do not want to take this anywhere, I am simply trying to follow where it is going.

H Bogart writes... However, you could argue that it is implicit in the account of Jesus' conception and birth, and explicit at his baptism (e.g. Mt. 3:17), that Jesus was already in a sonship relationship with the Father.

Response- Without listing the numerous scriptures available I agree that Jesus had a Father and son relationship with God before the resurrection.

H Bogart writes... But I think it's likely that all of these references to Jesus being the Son of God relate to his eternal status as the eternally begotten Son of God and not to his birth from Mary.

Response- I don't see God as leaving us to this speculation of Jesus being eternally begotten when He plainly states that there was a specific day that Jesus was begotten and further reveals it as the day of resurrection.

H Bogart writes... John has a radically different perspective to Pauline Christianity. John 1:18 makes clear, I think, that the begetting of Jesus as God's Son is eternal and prior to his incarnation.

Response- When John is using the term only begotten Son he is always speaking of the resurrected Jesus.

It cannot be both ways, either Jesus was begotten on a particular day as God declared or he was not and if he was begotten on the day of his resurrection then that was when he became Gods only begotten Son and every reference of only begotten is post resurrection not begotten in eternity.

[Smokering]

Response-1Corinthians 15: 17-18 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Paul is here referring to the salvific necessity of Christ's resurrection. A dead Christ is no good to man or beast; one who has defeated death has the power to save.

He is not referring to temporal order--the wording is not 'Until Christ is raised, your faith is in vain'. A theological concept is being dealt with here, not a historical one.

I think it is certain that Moses and Elijah, at least, were saved; as they were present with Christ at the Transfiguration, and I fail to see how that could be if they were languishing in hell (Jezebel, for example, was notable by her absence). You have not addressed this point in your post. If saved, then, they must have been saved through faith in Christ. How much they knew of His death and resurrection is unclear--it is possible they did not know the manner in which He would save them, just as the Jews of Jesus' day were expecting a different kind of Messiah (a military one). Moses and Elijah most likely did not know Christ would be resurrected; what they did know, and believe to their salvation, was that the promised seed of Adam, the Serpent-Crusher, would one day redeem them from their sins.

And as it turned out, God chose to save His people by Christ's death and resurrection. The sacrifice was not enough; Christ had not only to submit to death but to conquer it. Without the resurrection, nobody who believed in the Messiah--from Moses, to Peter, to you and me today--would be any better than the heathen, for our faith would be in vain, and those of us who were dead would be truly lost.

This, I believe, is Paul's meaning. If you have an alternative exegesis I am willing to hear it, but to imply that Paul states nobody was saved until Christ died simply does not make Biblical sense. Do you really believe none of the Old Testament figures--including David, who was called the 'friend of God', and Enoch who was taken into heaven--were saved?

[Rupert Pupkin]

One point - I've just noticed that the original post for this thread was in 2004. I didn't realize that when I responded. Sorry!

Response- When John is using the term only begotten Son he is always speaking of the resurrected Jesus.

But you haven't given any scripture to support that - you have only cited Acts and Hebrews. The only scripture from John you quoted was John 3:16, and that is quite obviously most naturally read that Jesus was already the begotten Son prior to his coming into the world (God gave his only begotten Son). Which is confirmed by the reference to Jesus as the only begotten God in 1:18. There is nothing anywhere in John to support your claim that I know of - for John Jesus is the pre-existent begotten Son of God.

It cannot be both ways, either Jesus was begotten on a particular day as God declared or he was not and if he was begotten on the day of his resurrection then that was when he became Gods only begotten Son and every reference of only begotten is post resurrection not begotten in eternity.

Your first five words here reveal your whole problem. You say, "it cannot be both ways". Sez who? Does the Bible say it can't be both ways? No it doesn't. It's your arbitrary assumption. The Bible teaches that Jesus was both the begotten Son of God eternally and also begotten as the Son of God in his humanity temporally at the resurrection. If you ignore either, you won't do justice to the Bible's teaching.

Let me express this another way. Jesus can be begotten the Son of God at two different times (or more precisely, both atemporally and temporally), if he is begotten the Son of God in two different ways. We know that Jesus was both God and man. I am proposing that Jesus was begotten the Son of God in terms of his divinity eternally, but was begotten as the Son of God in his humanity at the resurrection. There are two different begettings because there are two different natures. But the two different begettings are not arbitrary, they are related to each other, in that everything in Christ's humanity mirrors what is true of him in his divinity. This is a very important theological principle I think.

[James Peter]

The question Humphrey is does the same biblical writer believe that Jesus was begotten at more than one different point or do we just have different writers holding different (and incompatible) views which are brought together canonically in a way that never would have occured in the author's lifetime.

Some believe that God was begotten only at the resurrection, many (Including Paul) believe it was at his baptism (though his enthronement could occur later, at the resurrection, under this model), Matthew and Luke move it forward to his birth and the prologue of John pushes it all the way back into eternity. Adoptionism (rather than Incarnationalism) is testified to by the biblical authors.

None of them though would say that before the Cross man could not be saved. Elijah and Enoch provide two examples of people who were categorically 'eternally saved' (according to the texts at least) a long, long time before Jesus' birth. Jesus' death was significant, but salvation prior to that was possible.

[Senetof]

Smokering writes...Do you really believe none of the Old Testament figures--including David, who was called the 'friend of God', and Enoch who was taken into heaven--were saved?

Response- If Christ does not die for the sin of man and then be resurrected the promise that the people in your list held would be of no value as Paul said "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished".

Smokering writes... I think it is certain that Moses and Elijah, at least, were saved;

Smokering writes...If saved, then, they must have been saved through faith in Christ.

Response- They can only be saved through faith in Christ because he made good on the promise.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

[Senetof]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

H Bogart writes of John 3:16... and that is quite obviously most naturally read that Jesus was already the begotten Son prior to his coming into the world.

Response- Why do you think it is obvious that Jesus was begotten prior his coming into the world when God declared the day of resurrection as the day that Jesus was begotten?

The only Jesus that God could give so that we would not perish and could receive everlasting life was the Jesus that died and was raised and that Jesus is God?s only begotten Son begotten by the resurrection.

H Bogart writes... Your first five words here reveal your whole problem. You say, "it cannot be both ways". Sez who?

Response- I believe the problem is that you have not asked the question of what made Jesus the Son of God before the resurrection and the only begotten Son after the resurrection.

We have two Adams and God told the first one that in the day he sinned that he would die, he did sin and his body lived on for hundreds of years so how did he die?

If the second Adam had sinned then he too would have died in that day and again in what way would Jesus have died?

If you cannot answer or do not find the question relevant then I do not believe there is anyway to understand the birth that occurs at the resurrection.

[LostSheep]

H Bogart writes of John 3:16... and that is quite obviously most naturally read that Jesus was already the begotten Son prior to his coming into the world.

Response- Why do you think it is obvious that Jesus was begotten prior his coming into the world when God declared the day of resurrection as the day that Jesus was begotten?
.

Read your bible:
As Jesus says in John 17:24:

"Father…you loved me before the creation/foundation of the world." (See NIV, NRSV, NKJV, ESV).

[Smokering]

They can only be saved through faith in Christ because he made good on the promise.

Yeah; so? Christ did make good on His promise; hence, the Old Testament saints were saved, BEFORE the resurrection, which is my point. This refutes the point you made in your original post:

When Jesus was born to Mary, who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was twelve who could be saved?...no one.
When Jesus was thirty who could be saved?...no one

[Senetof]

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

LostSheep writes...Read your bible:

Response- That is always good advice but are you trying to say that because God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world that this verse is trying to say that he was begotten before the foundation of the world and not on the day that God declared Jesus was begotten?