Kids In Cages...

[Cow Poke]

The article says "noncitizens." How did you leap from "noncitizens" to "illegals?" Are you under the mistaken impression that every noncitizen within the U.S. is illegal?

Someone may be here on an H1B visa for work purposes, and be here for several years, raising children in the process. I have a colleague who lived that exact scenario. I see no reason they should not be able to vote on issues related to schools and other things that directly impact their families.

Perhaps, in that case.

I'm not sure how I feel about them voting in state or national elections. I'd have to think about it.

For REAL?

[seer]

The article says "noncitizens." How did you leap from "noncitizens" to "illegals?" Are you under the mistaken impression that every noncitizen within the U.S. is illegal?

Do these cities actually check immigration status?

Someone may be here on an H1B visa for work purposes, and be here for several years, raising children in the process. I have a colleague who lived that exact scenario. I see no reason they should not be able to vote on issues related to schools and other things that directly impact their families. I'm not sure how I feel about them voting in state or or national elections. I'd have to think about it.

Why? National election can and do directly impact our lives.

[carpedm9587]

Do these cities actually check immigration status?

The article doesn't say. Do you have evidence they don't?

Why? National election can and do directly impact our lives.

Which is why I would have to think about it. The impact is less immediate than "what the local school is doing," and I don't have a firm position on the issue at this time.

[JimL]

And I think you are. Identifying people who are breaking the law as lawbreakers is simple factual identification. The raids are against people who have outstanding warrants for deportation. That's not dehumanizing them. It's enforcing the law. The fact that you are emotionalizing it doesn't make it an emotional issue.

We were talking about the dehumanizing treatment of immigrants being held by the U.S. in the border prisons, and about those who defend that treatment.

[JimL]

The Democrats don't want a "balanced immigration policy" - they would prefer to keep this as a campaign issue.

You people really do live in a parallell universe, don't you? The campaign issue of immigration has been Trumps issue from the get go, and he is doing all he can to keep that issue afloat.

[Raphael]

We were talking about the dehumanizing treatment of immigrants being held by the U.S. in the border prisons, and about those who defend that treatment.

You keep leaving out the one important word there. ".... treatment of ILLEGAL immigrants ....".

They are still breaking the law.

As a legal immigrant myself I have very little sympathy for those who are illegal immigrants.

[JimL]

You keep leaving out the one important word there. ".... treatment of ILLEGAL immigrants ....".

They are still breaking the law.

So what, it shouldn't matter whether they are illegal or not, they should still be treated humanly while in our custody.

As a legal immigrant myself I have very little sympathy for those who are illegal immigrants.

Well that's sad, particularly coming from a professed christian.

[Cow Poke]

You people really do live in a parallell universe, don't you? The campaign issue of immigration has been Trumps issue from the get go, and he is doing all he can to keep that issue afloat.

A) It's "parallel", Jimmy -- an easy mistake to make.
2) Trump has managed to keep a lot of his campaign promises, much to the chagrin of the Democrats. They'll do their best to keep him from winning on this one.
C) It's ILLEGAL immigration Trump is trying to address.

[Cow Poke]

You keep leaving out the one important word there. ".... treatment of ILLEGAL immigrants ....".

They are still breaking the law.

As a legal immigrant myself I have very little sympathy for those who are illegal immigrants.

This is true with the vast majority of legal immigrants to our country.

[Bill the Cat]

We were talking about the dehumanizing treatment of immigrants being held by the U.S. in the border prisons, and about those who defend that treatment.

You mean the Dems who are actively stymying the funding of better accommodations?

[Cow Poke]

This is true with the vast majority of legal immigrants to our country.

SPEAKING of which.... Ocasio-Cortez gets new 2020 challenger: a Republican immigrant from Jamaica

[Sparko]

Quit trying to overgeneralize. Your comment on the parents and the picture was judgmental and callous. And quit with the 'virtue signaling'. That term is just someone's stupid attempt to express disdain for calling out something as wrong when it is wrong, and we are ALL supposed to do that.



I never said we should toss open the doors. I just called you and others out for trying to heap blame and judgement on desperate people fleeing a desperate situation. As (IIRC) JimL or Charles pointed out, dehumanizing them makes it easier to ignore their situation. Just like telling ourselves the situation isn't as bad as it looks helps us feel justified in ignoring it.



It's not so simple as that. It is not immoral to have rules for entry. But it is immoral to characterize desperate people fleeing desperate situations in ways that dehumanize them. If you'll look back over my posts, most of what I'm addressing are attempts to dehumanize or demonize these people. I've talked very little about what can or should be done to manage the situation. And there is a reason for that. Before we can ever begin to have a conversation about what should be done, we need to agree these are human being that are suffering, they are not all 'criminals' that deserve a hell hole spot because of the evil they have done.

And don't forget that we - the USA - actually hold some responsibility for the conditions they are fleeing.

This is something you do regularly, Jim. You assume your view is correct and then condemn anyone who does not agree with you as somehow deplorable, evil or unchristian. You never consider that your view could be wrong or that someone could possibly actually believe you are wrong. Instead you seem to assume everyone should agree with your view and if they don't they are doing it on purpose and are bad.

The fact is, we are not bad, and we don't agree with your view of the situation. We don't believe they are fleeing for their lives. We are not dehumanizing anyone. Or being immoral. We believe these people are being misled by liberals who entice them to come by promises of a land of milk and honey. That all they have to do is claim to want asylum and they will get it. Or they will be released into the country awaiting a court date and they can just disappear into the crowd. The fact is, even if they come here and get in one way or another illegally, they will end up scrounging for work at below minimum wage, being taken advantage of by unscrupulous men, doing back-breaking field work and similar. They will not be better off than before. They are being lied to. And while there might be some violence in their country, there is here too, in inner city slums, where they will probably end up anyway. So instead of being preyed on by the drug cartel (why would the cartel bother with civilians anyway?) they will be preyed on by inner city gangs and evil employers.

Let's see, because killing hundreds or thousands of people en masse is going to bring down a military response, whereas walking into a poor person/s house and slaughtering one or two people is not?

These are drug cartels, right? They are overrunning the country and forcing thousands to flee? And the government is doing nothing about that? Yet you think the cartel would be worried about looking bad for killing people in a caravan?

I don't think any of that is true. Usually the drug cartels want to keep the local citizens happy as a shield from the government and police. Remember Escobar? He basically bought entire neighborhoods with his drug money and the people loved him. He sponsored schools and churches. Yet you think these cartels are going around randomly killing innocent civilians for what?

Again - why do you continuously look for ways to pass judgement on these people, to play them as not really fleeing horror? Mexico has a lot of problems. There are probably very good reasons not to want to stay there - not the least of which would be that in Mexico they really don't have a chance at anything better than what they left behind - I mean come on - a large percentage of those same immigrants are coming DIRECTLY from Mexico, not just passing through! And they really don't have any protection from the cartels they are fleeing - if that is what they are fleeing. I wouldn't want to move to the slums in Mexico - would you? They probably take one look around and realize this is pot to the frying pan. The US is where the safety is, where the hope of a better life lies.


Jim

There are some bad places in Mexico, but mostly around the border of the US because that is where the criminals seem to gather to do drug smuggling. There are areas of Mexico that are just as safe and civilized as any place in the USA. A lot of people from the US retire to Mexico. And there are many other safe and civilized countries in Central and South America, much closer than the USA.

[Sparko]

• Many (most?) crimes are committed against people we know - for all three classes.
• There could very well be other people of all three classes that do not report such crimes.
• People in all three classes don't post their crimes on Facebook.

As Jim pointed out, demonizing/dehumanizing a group is a step towards atrocity. Genocide watch identifies the eight stages of genocide. Some of them are innocuous and happen in pretty much any society. Then the line gets crossed and people have already come to accept the stages that have slipped past them unnoticed. The stages are:

1. Classification
2. Symbolization
3. Dehumaniization
4. Organization
5. Polarization
6. Preparation
7. Extermination
8. Denial

It is frightening that we are now into Stage 6 in the U.S. Of course, the response will be "never here." I'm sure societies around the world have said "never here" just before the reality struck. We are already defending and supporting Stages 1-5 as "acceptable" and "justified."

The prochoice cabal is already past the "denial" stage and into the "celebration" stage.

[Sparko]

Contrary to popular belief, entering the U.S. at any point along its border and seeking asylum is not illegal, so lumping asylum seekers in with "illegal immigrants" is simply more "us versus them" language designed to separate and dehumanize.

Currently if someone crosses the border at any place other than a port of entry they will be denied asylum and they will be breaking the law (crossing the border without permission IS illegal in itself.)

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...for-protection

[oxmixmudd]

This is something you do regularly, Jim. You assume your view is correct and then condemn anyone who does not agree with you as somehow deplorable, evil or unchristian. You never consider that your view could be wrong or that someone could possibly actually believe you are wrong. Instead you seem to assume everyone should agree with your view and if they don't they are doing it on purpose and are bad.

Sparko - you where passing judgement on the parents rather than asking why they might feel they had no choice. It is what it is.

The fact is, we are not bad, and we don't agree with your view of the situation. We don't believe they are fleeing for their lives.

Why are you trying to justify yourself here? It's really simple. You assumed there was no valid reason for those people to be enduring what they were enduring without any factual evidence that is the case for the people in those pictures. I asked a simple question - why are you not asking - instead - what are the conditions like in their home are that they could push a parent to decide to endure that? You should have never tried to cast aspersions upon the parents. And I'm pretty sure you know that. There are other arguments you can make, but that was a particularly poor one.

We are not dehumanizing anyone. Or being immoral.

You are, even if you don't understand that is what you are doing. These people are in a horrible rock and a hard place. It would be better to try to understand what is happening than to jump to judgement of those people.

We believe these people are being misled by liberals who entice them to come by promises of a land of milk and honey.

Then speak out against those liberals and don't try to paint the desperate parents misled by them as being negligent and callous.

That all they have to do is claim to want asylum and they will get it. Or they will be released into the country awaiting a court date and they can just disappear into the crowd. The fact is, even if they come here and get in one way or another illegally, they will end up scrounging for work at below minimum wage, being taken advantage of by unscrupulous men, doing back-breaking field work and similar. They will not be better off than before. They are being lied to. And while there might be some violence in their country, there is here too, in inner city slums, where they will probably end up anyway. So instead of being preyed on by the drug cartel (why would the cartel bother with civilians anyway?) they will be preyed on by inner city gangs and evil employers.

Nothing you have said there justifies casting aspersions on the immigrants themselves, especially accusing the parents of callous negligence. If they are being misled, then the blame is on the people misleading them. And if they are being misled, it is only because conditions are so bad at home they are desperate enough to be able to be misled. No-one leaves their home for a journey of thousands of miles on the barest hope of improvement if what they already have is good.

These are drug cartels, right? They are overrunning the country and forcing thousands to flee? And the government is doing nothing about that? Yet you think the cartel would be worried about looking bad for killing people in a caravan?

You might be right - I might be right. This is pure speculation as to why a cartel doesn't massacre thousands to get at a few. Thankfully, so far they have not. Who knows why. It's a silly argument on your part anyway. And again, what you are doing is casting aspersions on those that are actually fleeing death at the hands of cartels rather than acting out of compassion for such people. The bitterness and callousness you've bought into following trump often overwhelms me Sparko. I honestly often just don't know what to say. You, nobody, can approach how we talk about the immigrants based on petty political disagreements like Trump does and like you've been lured into doing. The petty bitterness and politics of Trump and the the Democrats can't be allowed to steal our humanity - but that is what is happening in this political feud over the border.

Jim