Kids In Cages...

[Sparko]

That contains my answers, points and questions. I have no problem leaving it there if you cannot answer or do not wish to continue.

You didn't actually address my points. You just complained about what I said -- as per your usual response to things you can't actually address:

Let's see... Teal just called me a hypocrite for not having to live with the consequences. And now I am not minding my business because I have not closed the borders. Statements made by people who do not know what I do, say or vote. And seemingly do not even know where I live. Should we get back on topic?


Asking a question based on an extreme example is not ignorance. And I note you could not answer the question.


Yes, we have gone over it many times. You still haven't answered the very simple question why the danger and suffering the children endured justifies even more suffering. What is the need for further bad things to happen?

And why do you state "30% of them are not even families"? It has already been showed to you why that is not correct.

And the innocent children made the decision to go?

[carpedm9587]

43 percent of illegal immigrants skip court hearings, 49 percent for minors

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/w...-49-for-minors

I'll see your Examiner and raise you one Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.6805e14ab097

The problem, Seer, is that people are cherry picking the statistics that they most like, ignoring that there is a complex issue here (i.e., changing court dates, court locations, communication issues, etc.). The numbers are as low as 11% and as high as 90%, depending on whose statistics you believe and what exactly they were measuring.

Then there was the family case management program - which saw 99% compliance with scheduled court dates. Of course, Trump canceled it. After all - it doesn't matter if it's working or not working - it was an Obama-era program, so it has to go.

[carpedm9587]

Then why are there still people starving and living in squalor in our cities?

Because a) the Dems keep putting forward programs that are not well structured, b) the Reps cancel or overburden any program that serves the poor, whether it is working or not, and c) the recent Congresses can't get out of their way or work across the aisle long enough to get anything done. Anyone working across the aisle is pretty much immediately primaried, and lately that is on either side of the political divide.

Why is LA covered in tents and San Francisco in human waste?

I just came back from LA, Sparko. I can assure you it is not "covered in tents and human waste." That is hyperbole at its finest.

Why do we have people living in fear of gangs in our cities?

Because we don't have adequate community-police relations, inadequate programs serving the poor, inadequate policing resources, and too many young people who see a hopeless situation that makes the gangs more attractive. Oh - and there ARE some pretty nasty people in the world, so there's that too.

[carpedm9587]

Er, guys, while I agree we need to tend to home before tending to other people's homes, I'm not a great example. I was homeless twice but neither time for very long and while I lost a lot of possessions, that's not the end of the world.

I still think the best argument is that when we provide the economic/political escape valve, we are insuring that the countries that use that valve will not seriously address their internal problems, thereby condemning both the current and subsequent generations to continued poverty and desperation. There's no rational reason that Central and South American nations can't be prosperous - other than it's easier to let us handle the malcontents/protesters/poor than to fix what is wrong.

It might help if we actually looked at the historical role we have played in these countries that contributed to their current situation. We Americans get all up in arms when a foreign power interferes with our internal processes, but we will do so in another country at the drop of a hat - if it serves our "national security interests," which are sometimes blatantly economic interests.

We might want as a nation, to be a tad less hypocritical, own what we have done in the past, and do what we can to set it right.

[Teallaura]

It might help if we actually looked at the historical role we have played in these countries that contributed to their current situation. We Americans get all up in arms when a foreign power interferes with our internal processes, but we will do so in another country at the drop of a hat - if it serves our "national security interests," which are sometimes blatantly economic interests.

We might want as a nation, to be a tad less hypocritical, own what we have done in the past, and do what we can to set it right.

Yeah, that works for soundbites - but in reality, the massive poverty issues have next to nothing to do with American FP in the last fifty - sixty years - and that's ample time to recover from the banana fiasco (which yes, really WAS our fault, although more corporate than governmental). Americans are bad doesn't excuse the bad governmental decisions made for decades by countries the US had little FP interest in - or even a LOT of FP interest in. They aren't children - they are grown ups administering actual governments. The tin horn dictator does happen - but it's the exception, not the rule. So we're mostly dealing with governments that WERE perfectly competent to make better decisions but for a variety of reasons - not mere US meddling as you seem to contend - failed to do so.

Frankly, we will have to help via FP - several governments are incapable of basic response and many others just don't want to due to internal politics. And we'll probably make mistakes - so will they. But doing the same stupid thing won't fix the problem.

[Sparko]

I'll see your Examiner and raise you one Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.6805e14ab097

The problem, Seer, is that people are cherry picking the statistics that they most like, ignoring that there is a complex issue here (i.e., changing court dates, court locations, communication issues, etc.). The numbers are as low as 11% and as high as 90%, depending on whose statistics you believe and what exactly they were measuring.

Then there was the family case management program - which saw 99% compliance with scheduled court dates. Of course, Trump canceled it. After all - it doesn't matter if it's working or not working - it was an Obama-era program, so it has to go.

Your source actually agrees with Seer. And it is using The Dept of Justice's numbers which should be accurate.

from your article:

"When using the Justice Department’s preferred metric, 44 percent of migrants who were not in custody failed to show up for their court proceedings."

[carpedm9587]

Yeah, that works for soundbites - but in reality, the massive poverty issues have next to nothing to do with American FP in the last fifty - sixty years - and that's ample time to recover from the banana fiasco (which yes, really WAS our fault, although more corporate than governmental). Americans are bad doesn't excuse the bad governmental decisions made for decades by countries the US had little FP interest in - or even a LOT of FP interest in. They aren't children - they are grown ups administering actual governments. The tin horn dictator does happen - but it's the exception, not the rule. So we're mostly dealing with governments that WERE perfectly competent to make better decisions but for a variety of reasons - not mere US meddling as you seem to contend - failed to do so.

Frankly, we will have to help via FP - several governments are incapable of basic response and many others just don't want to due to internal politics. And we'll probably make mistakes - so will they. But doing the same stupid thing won't fix the problem.

Then we have a different view of history, Teal. We have backed failed dictators and strongmen, forced American models of democracy on other countries, and inserted ourselves into the inner workings of many, many, countries - many of which are now struggling. We don't need to spend a lot of time on "mea culpas;" I find that an exercise in futility and idiocy. But we CAN acknowledge our role, begin to change how we engage with these other countries (perhaps just a tad more respectfully), and begin to ask what programs and processes we can put in place that will best help THEM to get their legs under them, determine their course going forward, and develop into a stable country/economy on their own terms.

Unfortunately, too many in the U.S. have one god: mammon. They kneel before the all-powerful economy. They trade their souls for someone who will give them 1 or 2 percentage points on GDP growth. If that means steamrolling another country, encouraging business practices that steamroll other countries, or even invading (overtly or covertly) another country to "protect our interests," we do so at the drop of a hat. Then we wail and gnash our teeth when someone has the audacity to do the same to us.

American hypocrisy is pretty well known around the world. So is American arrogance. So is American generosity, so it's not ALL bad. But we would do well to spend time on what we HAVE done badly, and change/amend. That is not going to happen under the current "never apologize - it's a sign of weakness" executive.

[carpedm9587]

Your source actually agrees with Seer. And it is using The Dept of Justice's numbers which should be accurate.

from your article:

"When using the Justice Department’s preferred metric, 44 percent of migrants who were not in custody failed to show up for their court proceedings."

Read the rest of the article, Sparko. As I said - the numbers are all over the map - depending on whose numbers you accept. The Examiner focuses on the numbers the right likes to hear. The Post paints the wider picture, noting the wide variation depending on sources, and the near-impossibility of validation of many of these numbers.

[Sparko]

Because a) the Dems keep putting forward programs that are not well structured, b) the Reps cancel or overburden any program that serves the poor, whether it is working or not, and c) the recent Congresses can't get out of their way or work across the aisle long enough to get anything done. Anyone working across the aisle is pretty much immediately primaried, and lately that is on either side of the political divide.



I just came back from LA, Sparko. I can assure you it is not "covered in tents and human waste." That is hyperbole at its finest.



Because we don't have adequate community-police relations, inadequate programs serving the poor, inadequate policing resources, and too many young people who see a hopeless situation that makes the gangs more attractive. Oh - and there ARE some pretty nasty people in the world, so there's that too.

so back to what I said earlier, we need to fix our problems at home and then help others.

[Sparko]

Read the rest of the article, Sparko. As I said - the numbers are all over the map - depending on whose numbers you accept. The Examiner focuses on the numbers the right likes to hear. The Post paints the wider picture, noting the wide variation depending on sources, and the near-impossibility of validation of many of these numbers.

The rest of the article is typical playing with numbers to make them say what the writer of the article wants them to say. The actual figures from the Justice Dept are the ones to pay attention to. They are the ones dealing with the actual hearings and know who shows up and who doesn't.

And you saying "it's impossible to know..." is just your usual handwaving away facts you don't like.

[Teallaura]

Then we have a different view of history, Teal. We have backed failed dictators and strongmen, forced American models of democracy on other countries, and inserted ourselves into the inner workings of many, many, countries - many of which are now struggling. We don't need to spend a lot of time on "mea culpas;" I find that an exercise in futility and idiocy. But we CAN acknowledge our role, begin to change how we engage with these other countries (perhaps just a tad more respectfully), and begin to ask what programs and processes we can put in place that will best help THEM to get their legs under them, determine their course going forward, and develop into a stable country/economy on their own terms.

Unfortunately, too many in the U.S. have one god: mammon. They kneel before the all-powerful economy. They trade their souls for someone who will give them 1 or 2 percentage points on GDP growth. If that means steamrolling another country, encouraging business practices that steamroll other countries, or even invading (overtly or covertly) another country to "protect our interests," we do so at the drop of a hat. Then we wail and gnash our teeth when someone has the audacity to do the same to us.

American hypocrisy is pretty well known around the world. So is American arrogance. So is American generosity, so it's not ALL bad. But we would do well to spend time on what we HAVE done badly, and change/amend. That is not going to happen under the current "never apologize - it's a sign of weakness" executive.

We already apologized - Obama made a thing of apologizing to the entire world. Cold War ended nearly thirty years ago - what, exactly, were they doing when we didn't take a major FP interest in them? As much as you want to make all of the world's ills America's fault, that simply isn't reality. And even if it were, providing a political pressure escape valve only worsens, not improves, matters.

[Charles]

As much as you want to make all of the world's ills America's fault, that simply isn't reality.

Straw man.

[Teallaura]

Straw man.

Yes, your arguments are. Glad you figured it out.

[Terraceth]

It might help if we actually looked at the historical role we have played in these countries that contributed to their current situation. We Americans get all up in arms when a foreign power interferes with our internal processes, but we will do so in another country at the drop of a hat - if it serves our "national security interests," which are sometimes blatantly economic interests.

Our meddling in Panama, at least, seems to have helped out the country quite a bit.

[Starlight]

Our meddling in Panama, at least, seems to have helped out the country quite a bit.

Really? What exactly would you point to?

Here's an article that analyses the issue and concludes that US intervention in Panama changed very little...

Panama remains haunted by corruption, money-laundering and, by some accounts, drug-trafficking... This state of affairs—and the ways in which it echoes the situation before the U.S. got involved—might suggest a level of humility, if not outright discouragement, about American ability to project power and effect change in Latin America.