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  1. #441
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    It is not possible to have a government by/of/for the people if the people are not permitted to speak and participate, Seer. That would seem to me to be a given. The American experiment is based on that fundamental concept: government by/for/of the people in which the people can freely engage. The only "unamerican" thing I can think of is to undermine that foundation.
    But you would say that voting out property rights is not un-american. Why call the loss of one right un-american and not the other? Another fundamental concept is property rights.

    As for minority/majority, I know you have expressed before your fear of the "tyranny of the majority." From where I sit, you simply want to replace it with the tyranny of the minority. The fact is, in any society, decisions must be made. The "american way" is for open debate, discussion, disputation of the issues and ideas at play. When it comes time to decide, someone is not going to get their way. Letting the minority rule the majority makes no sense to me. A "majority rules" approach is the cornerstone of all democracies - even representational ones.
    And if the majority decides to disenfranchise the minority that would be a perfectly American concept.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #442
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp, so in your view nothing could be considered un-american as long as the majority voted it in, or voted it out. The First Amendment? Freedom of the press, religion? The right of trial? If that is the case Carp, there is no definition of Americanism, anything could be labeled "American." Nothing un-American.
    Carp lives in his own little world with his own personal definitions of things. Like "all politics is identity politics" - "pregnant women are slaves to their fetuses", etc.

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  4. #443
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    In my view - Lincoln said it best. The heart of the American experiment is "government of the people, by the people, for the people,"
    Which communism is not. It might claim to be "for the people" but it is in fact a totalitarian government that controls the people and everything else. It isn't democratic. Look at Cuba, the USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba.

  5. #444
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But you would say that voting out property rights is not un-american.
    If the will of the people is to eliminate personal property, why should the people not get the kind of government they want?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Why call the loss of one right un-american and not the other?
    Because the loss of freedom of speech prevents government by/for/of the people. The abolition of person property does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Another fundamental concept is property rights.

    And if the majority decides to disenfranchise the minority that would be a perfectly American concept.
    And if the minority decides to disenfranchise the majority, that would be a perfectly American concept....?

    Seer, what would you substitute for "majority rules" in a free society?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #445
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Which communism is not. It might claim to be "for the people" but it is in fact a totalitarian government that controls the people and everything else. It isn't democratic. Look at Cuba, the USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba.
    As far as I can see - the definition of "communism" has nothing to do with totalitarianism. All it has to do with is the existence of personal property and the distribution of wealth within a society. If every dictator in the world decided to base their decisions on the will of the majority - that wouldn't make them any less a dictator. If a totalitarian state decides "everything owned by the state for the people" doesn't make them any less a totalitarian state.

    The U.S. is a representational democracy. If that representational democracy were to adopt communistic social/economic policies because that were the will of the constituents, it would not cease to be a representational democracy. It would simply be a representational democracy with communist social and economic principles. We already have socialist economic principles/policies at work, and a huge number of people like them.

    Personally, I don't think communism is a workable economic or social model. I probably wouldn't stay if we headed that way. I'd advocate to NOT head that way. But I'm not going to call someone "unamerican" because they have the audacity to disagree with me on economic and social policy.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #446
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    OK. I'll bite. Exactly how is communism the anti-thesis of our American form of government?
    Because it isn't about a government by the people. It starts out that way, promising the workers equality, but ends up a totalitarian dictatorship. The workers need a leader to guide them, a government to control the means of production to assure equality and so on. Can you name one communist country that is "by the people" that has free and open democratic elected officials?

  8. #447
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    If the will of the people is to eliminate personal property, why should the people not get the kind of government they want?

    Because the loss of freedom of speech prevents government by/for/of the people. The abolition of person property does not.
    But so what? The abolition of person property takes away a freedom, why should freedom of speech remain, especially for a minority if the majority voted that way?

    And if the minority decides to disenfranchise the majority, that would be a perfectly American concept....?

    Seer, what would you substitute for "majority rules" in a free society?
    That is not my point Carp, there are freedoms, that if the majority took away, you would not call un-american. So if the majority disenfranchised the minority when it came to petitioning the government, why would that be un-american in your world?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  9. #448
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Losing an election is not a necessary indicator of the quality of the candidate, Teal. There are many other factors at work. For myself, I thought Clinton was a bad choice simply because she was so badly hated by the right, creating an unnecessary opening for Trump. I also thought she suffered from entitlement syndrome, and was not surrounding herself with the right people - which is not a good sign for a potential president.

    But, IMO, there is no comparison between the offal currently sitting behind the Resolute Desk and any of the other candidates in 2016, on either side of the aisle. Even Cruz was better - much as I shudder to consider it. The same is true of the slate of candidates for 2020. Heck...Zadok Rubin would be a better choice!
    She lost to Trump. She was the front runner, and lost to Trump. No one took him seriously - and she still lost to Trump.

    It's hard to imagine a worse candidate - heck, she beat out Bob Dole's 'But He's a Bad Person' campaign for Worst Way to Lose an Election.

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  11. #449
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As far as I can see - the definition of "communism" has nothing to do with totalitarianism. All it has to do with is the existence of personal property and the distribution of wealth within a society. If every dictator in the world decided to base their decisions on the will of the majority - that wouldn't make them any less a dictator. If a totalitarian state decides "everything owned by the state for the people" doesn't make them any less a totalitarian state.

    The U.S. is a representational democracy. If that representational democracy were to adopt communistic social/economic policies because that were the will of the constituents, it would not cease to be a representational democracy. It would simply be a representational democracy with communist social and economic principles. We already have socialist economic principles/policies at work, and a huge number of people like them.

    Personally, I don't think communism is a workable economic or social model. I probably wouldn't stay if we headed that way. I'd advocate to NOT head that way. But I'm not going to call someone "unamerican" because they have the audacity to disagree with me on economic and social policy.
    Ah! I see you have your own personal definition of communism. Why am I not surprised. I can see there is no way to discuss this topic with you since we would be talking past each other. I will let you have the last word.

  12. #450
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As far as I can see - the definition of "communism" has nothing to do with totalitarianism. All it has to do with is the existence of personal property and the distribution of wealth within a society.
    How do you institute Communism with out being totalitarian? You would literally have to use force of law to prevent me from selling my pig to my neighbor. It is government control from top to bottom, no freedom...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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