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    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      You start of with "Tolerance is not binary", then you proceed to list some very binary choices. There's a less binary option --- be tolerant of the fact that some people are simply uninformed or misinformed and work with them.
      CP - there is nothing inconsistent about "being intolerant of racism" and "working with people who hold those views through misinformation or lack of information."

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I would say the vast majority of the people I work with at the shelter are anti-Trump / pro-Obama (or whoever the current liberal Anointed One happens to be) and it would be very easy for me to sanctimoniously declare "I won't TOLERATE that hate" and refuse to work with them. I can't even count the times somebody I'm helping has bashed the very values I believe in, but the fact is (in my opinion) they have bought into a false belief system, and that doesn't change the fact that they are people in need. So I help them. I don't pick up my ball and bat and go home.
      Again - my comment was about not tolerating the POV...

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      That's rather intolerant and binary. Not all of us who voted for Trump did it because we "supported" or "loved" him -- you know that.
      So then you are not one of those who "love/support Trump" and don't meet the criteria of my comment.

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I think you're far more intolerant than you let on.

      And I'm OK having the last word on that!
      As you wish...
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Yep. What a completely bizarre and inconsistent worldview. He's defining "unAmerican (idiosyncratically as usual) "to deny that [Americans] have the right to [their] views and to whomever they want to elect," but in the same breath, if Americans don't pick the guy he wants, he's not sticking around? Wha?

          And what sort of definition is that, really? I'm absolutely certain that there are people the world over who would concede that Americans have the right as a highly developed, Democratic Republic to their views, and whomever they want to elect, but HATE America's views and duly elected officials, and would vow that they themselves are as anti-American as is possible.

          Get the feeling he hasn't really thought this through very well, and is kinda making things up as he goes along as he replies to people in the thread.
          1) Americans have the right to elect who they wish to elect - this is a representative democracy.
          2) If Americans re-elect Trump, it will tell me something about my fellow Americans, and I'd prefer to live elsewhere.

          How, exactly, are these two positions inconsistent?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            I don't remember you calling those instances out...
            Seer, I don't comment on thousands of news cycles per day/month/year. So if I have not explicitly made a comment about news story or issue X, then I am in support? Really?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              1) Americans have the right to elect who they wish to elect - this is a representative democracy.
              2) If Americans re-elect Trump, it will tell me something about my fellow Americans, and I'd prefer to live elsewhere.

              How, exactly, are these two positions inconsistent?
              It would actually only tell you something about half of the LESS than half of the eligible voters who voted, and you're totally ignoring those who are ineligible to vote --- our future generations.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                My wife and I have been watching a (Netflix?) series on border issues in New Zealand and Australia. Wow, are THOSE people intolerant!!! They don't want anarchists, druggies, sex offenders, criminals, too much tobacco or alcohol, liars, thieves, Visa* abusers.....

                Don't move to either of THOSE countries! They're SERIOUS about their borders!

                *travel document, not credit card
                No country will be perfect - and we've only just started looking. The looking is part of a long-term retirement plan that such a move would simply be a slight shift on. I think it is silly to retire and then spend thousands of dollars a year traveling while holding down the cost of a home. I want to sell everything we own, pick a city somewhere in the world, move there for 6-12 months (furnished apartment), and explore everything in driving distance from that base. Then pick another city and repeat, until we cannot do so anymore. See the world using the money we would use to live day-to-day.

                Leaving the U.S. would only be a slight twist on that in which we would also seek to establish citizenship in an alternate country and forfeit our American passports and citizenship in favor of our "adopted" country.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  CP - there is nothing inconsistent...
                  Click your heels together three times while repeating "there's no place like NOT America....."
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    1) Americans have the right to elect who they wish to elect - this is a representative democracy.
                    2) If Americans re-elect Trump, it will tell me something about my fellow Americans, and I'd prefer to live elsewhere.

                    How, exactly, are these two positions inconsistent?
                    Ven-ezuela is the place to be
                    Leftist policies is the life for me musical note.gif

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      No country will be perfect - and we've only just started looking. The looking is part of a long-term retirement plan that such a move would simply be a slight shift on....
                      And, there we have it! "I was planning on leaving eventually anyway, but Trump!"
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        And, there we have it! "I was planning on leaving eventually anyway, but Trump!"
                        You might want to read the rest...


                        ...or not...
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          You might want to read the rest...


                          ...or not...
                          I did --- you were already planning on leaving anyway.


                          But TRUMP!!!!
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I did --- you were already planning on leaving anyway.

                            But TRUMP!!!!
                            If that is what you got from the post, then you might want to look into some reading comprehension courses...
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              ...

                              There's plenty of good reason to move to another country. This isn't really one of them. I think assuming Trump wins, it's likely that long term it'll go very badly for Conservatives. I believe people will look back on this presidency as one they'll not want to repeat, and we'll see a dramatic swing to the left the prevents it from ever coming to fruition. That's one of the (many) reasons I'm anti-Trump. The right might get what they want short term, but I think it's going to cost them massively down the road.
                              I disagree. Frankly, Trump reminds me more and more of Reagan - who I only grudgingly admit was a better president than I'd given him credit for being. REALLY grudgingly.

                              Anyway, I doubt the long term effects you foresee. Most people move on quickly - the effects you are talking about are largely self limiting to the base. In this case, to the far, far left base that many Democrats don't identify with at all.

                              Trump isn't the issue - the Democrat Party is in serious trouble. Hating Trump gives them a desperately needed rallying cry - but what do they do when he's gone?

                              They've lost their vanguard; the new 'candidates' for the position are eating each other and they have no plan that sells well. Obama ruined the chances of going single payer (thankfully!) and seriously set back healthcare as an issue. People care about it but they saw their costs skyrocket and they aren't keen for the next experiment. Climate change is a mess as a vanguard issue - even if you accept the premise, the US is incapable of stopping it alone. Reality keeps getting in the way and people aren't willing to destroy their own livelihoods to not actually save the planet. They are a joke in foreign policy - made worse by the recent one eighty on war policies that has irritated their moderates no end.

                              The Court is showing definite signs of being more constructionist - which is bad news all the way around for Democrats. It is likely to undermine and overturn many of the 'accomplishments' of the Democrats - especially if Trump is re-elected and gets another appointment, both of which have a fair shot of happening. Then what to they run on? Trump's gone - everything they 'accomplished', including Obamacare, is gone - how do you appeal to the middle with that record?

                              The rise of the Internet and the decline of the TV monopoly on media is a net benefit to conservatives - a lot of centrists really have no idea what conservatives actually believe and more exposure may very well increase conservative ranks. Millennials are in their 30's - the odds favor most of them becoming more conservative as time progresses - and the chances to be favorably exposed to conservative thought will improve those odds. Not to mention Fox being a ratings champion at the moment - it's milquetoast for conservatives but a safe peek in for centrists and liberals alike.

                              Now, I will caveat that I'm not a prophet and I could be wrong. Heck, we could both be wrong and something else entirely develops. But that's part of what makes politics both fascinating and incredibly frustrating.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                So then you're not talking about communism - you're talking about totalitarianism. I am not advocating for totalitarianism (or communism, for that matter). I am noting that there is nothing inconsistent about communism and "America," except the hype that came out of McCarthyism.
                                No, I am saying that communism always ends up being run by a dictator. Can you name one country that hasn't?
                                Originally posted by sparko
                                The workers need a leader to guide them, a government to control the means of production to assure equality and so on. Can you name one communist country that is "by the people" that has free and open democratic elected officials?
                                Nope. And that was not the issue. I also cannot name one country that selected communism as a democratically selected model. As far as I know, it has never happened.
                                You were the one arguing that it is compatible with America's government and democracy. I guess you are wrong. As far as a country democratically selecting communism? I would say the closest I can think of is Venezuela. Once Maduro was elected however, he became a dictator and it is no longer a democracy, but a socialist hell and a defacto communist country as the government owns the farms and production.

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