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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    There are some truly bad people everywhere, Jim. Undocumented immigrants are, as a percentage, far less likely to commit crimes than are citizens.
    Source, please?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Source, please?
      There are many sources, CP. Here's one.http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...it-more-crime/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        There are some truly bad people everywhere, Jim. Undocumented immigrants are, as a percentage, far less likely to commit crimes than are citizens. What the right does, and what Trump himself does, racist that he is, is to find an incidence of a violent criminal act by an immigrant and then use it as a propaganda tool to make all immigrants look bad, to demonize them all, and to popularize the building of walls to keep out these evil poor brown races.

        There is nothing wrong with finding, arresting, and imprisoning or deporting violent criminal immigrants. I don't think you would find anyone who'd disagree with that sentiment, but that problem is overblown for white nationalist, racist, political reasons. For the most part, immigrants, undocumented immigrants, south american immigrants, are good hard working people who pay taxes and contribute to american society. To much of the right, they are demons, inhuman, which is made all the more obvious by the way people in this very discussion talk about them.
        So what you're saying is that Trump, and the right in general, take the worst examples of immigrants and use them to demonize the entire demographic, because they're racist?
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          There are many sources, CP. Here's one.http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...it-more-crime/
          Unfortunately, that's behind a paywall.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            You claim we aren't expected to do anything personally about the border, yet you are holding us morally responsible for apparently not making the correct comments that you agree with. You want us to "virtue signal" with you or we are evil and callous.
            Quit trying to overgeneralize. Your comment on the parents and the picture was judgmental and callous. And quit with the 'virtue signaling'. That term is just someone's stupid attempt to express disdain for calling out something as wrong when it is wrong, and we are ALL supposed to do that.

            Jim, we all agree these people need to be treated humanely. I haven't said or seen anyone else say they shouldn't be. I just doubt the situation is as the news and the democrats are reporting it. If it is, then they need to fix it. But the solution isn't to just open the borders and let everyone in. The solution is to stop the flood.
            I never said we should toss open the doors. I just called you and others out for trying to heap blame and judgement on desperate people fleeing a desperate situation. As (IIRC) JimL or Charles pointed out, dehumanizing them makes it easier to ignore their situation. Just like telling ourselves the situation isn't as bad as it looks helps us feel justified in ignoring it.

            You also seem to think it is immoral to want to stop people from even coming here illegally.
            It's not so simple as that. It is not immoral to have rules for entry. But it is immoral to characterize desperate people fleeing desperate situations in ways that dehumanize them. If you'll look back over my posts, most of what I'm addressing are attempts to dehumanize or demonize these people. I've talked very little about what can or should be done to manage the situation. And there is a reason for that. Before we can ever begin to have a conversation about what should be done, we need to agree these are human being that are suffering, they are not all 'criminals' that deserve a hell hole spot because of the evil they have done.

            And don't forget that we - the USA - actually hold some responsibility for the conditions they are fleeing.


            We disagree on that. Again you think they are fleeing for their lives and I don't. Because if they were, they would have stopped in Mexico, or went to another nearby safe country instead of all coming here en masse. They also gather for months to create these caravans. If your life is in danger in your home would you sit around for months waiting on a huge caravan to gather? If there is such danger to these people, why are the criminals that are killing them in their neighborhoods not killing them in the caravans? Sitting ducks.
            Let's see, because killing hundreds or thousands of people en masse is going to bring down a military response, whereas walking into a poor person/s house and slaughtering one or two people is not?

            Again - why do you continuously look for ways to pass judgement on these people, to play them as not really fleeing horror? Mexico has a lot of problems. There are probably very good reasons not to want to stay there - not the least of which would be that in Mexico they really don't have a chance at anything better than what they left behind - I mean come on - a large percentage of those same immigrants are coming DIRECTLY from Mexico, not just passing through! And they really don't have any protection from the cartels they are fleeing - if that is what they are fleeing. I wouldn't want to move to the slums in Mexico - would you? They probably take one look around and realize this is pot to the frying pan. The US is where the safety is, where the hope of a better life lies.


            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-16-2019, 12:01 AM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
              So what you're saying is that Trump, and the right in general, take the worst examples of immigrants and use them to demonize the entire demographic ...
              I don't know about 'because they are racist', but the rest is spot on. It is a lot easier not to care about a person if you can dehumanize them or through some other means objectify them.

              There is a lot of politics going on here - on both sides. But in the middle are a large number of very poor people and children that are suffering.


              Jim
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Yes I did. Which candidate was it did you say who was advocating for open borders?
                The same candidate that said they are "anti-American” and “a bunch of communists” and "hate Jews". That is no candidate said or implied those things. These are just the racist tropes justifying the unspeakable treatment of desperate brown children who have had the misfortune to fall into the hands of Trump and his heartless policies.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • 00000000000000ab000-00e.jpg

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Unfortunately, that's behind a paywall.
                    Here are the salient charts:

                    Study 1
                    chartychart.jpg

                    Study 2
                    chartychart2.jpg

                    The first chart isn't quite as persuasive as the WaPo makes out; although immigrant crime rates are less than native crime rates, illegal immigrants commit crimes about 3 times more than legal immigrants.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Here are the salient charts:

                      Study 1
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]38365[/ATTACH]

                      Study 2
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]38366[/ATTACH]

                      The first chart isn't quite as persuasive as the WaPo makes out; although immigrant crime rates are less than native crime rates, illegal immigrants commit crimes about 3 times more than legal immigrants.
                      Thanks.

                      I just have to wonder how many illegal immigrants committed crimes for which they have not been arrested, let alone convicted. Much of the "crimes against persons", for example, is committed by persons known to the victims. An illegal alien isn't going to report crimes committed against themselves for risk of being deported.

                      Also, having been the facilities manager for a gas compression company, I'm personally aware of numerous break-ins of facilities and thefts of goods by illegals who never get caught.

                      I wonder how big a gap there is between "crimes committed by illegals" and "crimes reported" against illegals.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Thanks.

                        I just have to wonder how many illegal immigrants committed crimes for which they have not been arrested, let alone convicted. Much of the "crimes against persons", for example, is committed by persons known to the victims. An illegal alien isn't going to report crimes committed against themselves for risk of being deported.

                        Also, having been the facilities manager for a gas compression company, I'm personally aware of numerous break-ins of facilities and thefts of goods by illegals who never get caught.

                        I wonder how big a gap there is between "crimes committed by illegals" and "crimes reported" against illegals.
                        There are gaps in all three classes, I'm sure. More people commit crimes than are caught. Unless you know of a specific reason why anyone should suspect the gap for illegal immigrants to be wider than the other two classes, I see no reason to assume it is.
                        Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-16-2019, 08:51 AM.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Undocumented immigrants are, as a percentage, far less likely to commit crimes than are citizens.
                          So what? They shouldn't be in this country in the first place to add to our crime rate. No matter how large or small.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            There are gaps in all three classes, I'm sure. More people commit crimes than are caught.
                            Ya THINK?

                            Unless you know of a specific reason why anyone should suspect the gap for illegal immigrants to be wider than the other two classes, I see no reason to assume it is.
                            Already said --- many crimes of passion and crimes against persons are committed against people they know. That could very well be other illegals who would not report such crimes. Illegals are much better at "keeping their heads down" than would be the general populace.

                            Heck, I bet you don't find many illegals committing crimes and boasting of it on Facebook!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Here are the salient charts:

                              Study 1
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]38365[/ATTACH]

                              Study 2
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]38366[/ATTACH]

                              The first chart isn't quite as persuasive as the WaPo makes out; although immigrant crime rates are less than native crime rates, illegal immigrants commit crimes about 3 times more than legal immigrants.
                              I've noted before how shaky some of these studies are often relying on convictions and the like when a substantial portion of illegals who are charged with crimes simply just vanish often returning to their country of origin.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                So what? They shouldn't be in this country in the first place to add to our crime rate. No matter how large or small.
                                Yes, there's that obvious -- they have ALREADY committed a crime simply by being here -- which tends to show a disregard for the rule of law.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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