Kids In Cages...

[Raphael]

Yep - but you're wrong!

I think that Clinton is worse than Carpe thinks Trump is.

I think Clinton is worse than the unholy union of Ghadaffi, Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Robert Mugabe.

[Teallaura]

I think that Clinton is worse than Carpe thinks Trump is.

I think Clinton is worse than the unholy union of Ghadaffi, Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Robert Mugabe.

Okay.... I don't wanna meet that combination in a well lit alley, let alone a dark one...

[carpedm9587]

Can you name one Communist country that wasn't totalitarian?

Nope - and that doesn't make your case.

Like with the Communist countries of the past you will always have a minority, often a significant minority, that still crave freedom. Freedom to make their own way apart from the state. And the state can't allow that - therefore, the gulags and the killing fields. Freedom of speech, as history shows, must also go by the way side - the state can not abide dissent.

In communist countries that are running under a totalitarian regime - no question about it. That is the nature of totalitarianism. There is nothing about communism that inherently requires totalitarianism. Indeed, it is generally the other way around, as best I can tell: a totalitarian leadership will want to secure as much support as possible and mollify the masses: what better way than "we'll all be equal and everyone will have what they need?"

That suggests totalitarian countries will tend towards communism. It does not support the claim that communism requires totalitarianism. Indeed, I suspect the reason we don't see communism in representative democracies is because people generally don't want it, so they don't choose it.

And they call for the forcible overthrow existing social conditions:

Indeed - pretty much what I said above.

And tell me Carp, where does Marx or Engels talk about the common man voting? Or Democracy?

I don't remember saying they did?

That being said - I think you need to explore Marx a bit more closely. Marx saw the period of transition to communism as one that could happen peacefully in countries with strong democratic institutions, but that it would entail violence and revolution in countries that are monarchies, oligarchies, or dictatorships as the "masses" overcame their bonds. Indeed, Engels notes that the purpose of the revolutionary period in communism is to "establish a democratic constitution, and through this, the direct or indirect dominance of the proletariat."

As I said - there is nothing inconsistent about communism and a representative democracy - or anything "unamerican" about communism OR socialism - except that they have been built up by many on the right to be the scary bogeymen used to keep the votes in line. Those bad liberal/leftists...they're all just commies and socialists out to deny you your freedoms!

If it wasn't so sad, it would be a little funny.

[carpedm9587]

Yep - but you're wrong!

Funny - I was thinking the same thing about you...

[carpedm9587]

Wow, I actually agree completely. i still don't think Bernie would have won - but you're quite correct that he had more power to excite his base.

I even agree on the second point. Of course, I have different reasons for wanting that ticket...

I'm hoping for a Biden/Harris or Warren/Harris ticket.

[Raphael]

I'm hoping for a Biden/Harris or Warren/Harris ticket.

Ahhh, so you are rooting for Trump 2020

[carpedm9587]

Ahhh, so you are rooting for Trump 2020

Actually - I am hoping against hope that he is shown the door by a landslide in 2020.

If he's not...my home will be on the market the next day and I will be out of the country by the inauguration.

[Cow Poke]

Actually - I am hoping against hope that he is shown the door by a landslide in 2020.

If he's not...my home will be on the market the next day and I will be out of the country by the inauguration.

So, you'll allow Trump to run your life, just like he's running the squad.

[carpedm9587]

So, you'll allow Trump to run your life, just like he's running the squad.

No. I'll elect to leave a country that has departed so badly from the country I grew up in and loved. It's not about Trump per se - it's more about my fellow citizens. Trump was elected once, and I understand the dynamics that led to that. We have now had 2+ years of him, seen what he is doing and what kind of person he is. If the people of this country put him back in that office in November, 2020, then this is no longer the country I once knew and loved - and I will want nothing further to do with it. I'm of an age where I can shift without major consequence. Elder family is cared for or gone. Children are independent. I can and will spend the rest of my life in a country I can take pride in and among people whose values I respect and share. If he's back in - this isn't it.


I'm sure I'll be badly missed...

[seer]

No. I'll elect to leave a country that has departed so badly from the country I grew up in and loved. It's not about Trump per se - it's more about my fellow citizens. Trump was elected once, and I understand the dynamics that led to that. We have now had 2+ years of him, seen what he is doing and what kind of person he is. If the people of this country put him back in that office in November, 2020, then this is no longer the country I once knew and loved - and I will want nothing further to do with it. I'm of an age where I can shift without major consequence. Elder family is cared for or gone. Children are independent. I can and will spend the rest of my life in a country I can take pride in and among people whose values I respect and share. If he's back in - this isn't it.


I'm sure I'll be badly missed...

So you are like the Hollywood types who threaten to leave if Trump is elected - you won't. And I agree, thanks to the leftists this is no longer the country I once knew and loved.

[rogue06]

No. I'll elect to leave a country that has departed so badly from the country I grew up in and loved. It's not about Trump per se - it's more about my fellow citizens. Trump was elected once, and I understand the dynamics that led to that. We have now had 2+ years of him, seen what he is doing and what kind of person he is. If the people of this country put him back in that office in November, 2020, then this is no longer the country I once knew and loved - and I will want nothing further to do with it. I'm of an age where I can shift without major consequence. Elder family is cared for or gone. Children are independent. I can and will spend the rest of my life in a country I can take pride in and among people whose values I respect and share. If he's back in - this isn't it.


I'm sure I'll be badly missed...

I hear that U.S. dollars go a long way in Venezuela.

[carpedm9587]

So you are like the Hollywood types who threaten to leave if Trump is elected - you won't.

I cannot speak for the "Hollywood types," or what they will or will not do. With respect to myself, I strongly suggest you do not take bet on it.

And I agree, thanks to the leftists this is no longer the country I once knew and loved.

Ahh...so the country has changed and you hate it. By your own rules, doesn't that make you an "America-hater?"

Or is it only when we do not like America as YOU envision it that we become "America-haters?"

Interesting little issue...

[seer]

I hear that U.S. dollars go a long way in Venezuela.

He would be a millionaire down there...

[carpedm9587]

I hear that U.S. dollars go a long way in Venezuela.

I'm actually already looking at Australia, Canada, Tanzania, and Belize as possible semi-permanent bases. I'm crossing my fingers none of it will be necessary and this country will come to its senses and put a stop to what is going on. We'll see...

[seer]

Ahh...so the country has changed and you hate it. By your own rules, doesn't that make you an "America-hater?"

Or is it only when we do not like America as YOU envision it that we become "America-haters?"

Interesting little issue...

I did not say I hated it, only those who are trying to destroy it.