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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    My decision is not rooted in who Trump is per se - it is rooted in what it says about the people of our country if we can, with open eyes, give that same man that same office a second time.
    Carpe, MOST of that will depend on who the Democrats put up for election. If they were to actually run a centrist - somebody who wasn't an extreme leftist nutjob, I don't think Trump would have a chance. It is every bit as much the fault of the Democrats as it is Trump or his supporters.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      So, basically, you're intolerant.
      Of some things, absolutely. Tolerance is not a binary switch that is "on" or "off." It is a continuum along which our views range. We will support what we can support, tolerate what we cannot support but can accept, and we will be intolerant of that we cannot support or accept - to varying degrees. I will always be intolerant of bigotry and racism. I will not permit it in my home, I will not listen to it without objecting, I will not support or endorse someone who promotes such views. I have no problem with being seen as "intolerant of bigotry/racism."

      Those who love/support Trump are entirely free to have their views. I will discuss those views, voice my opposition to those views I find problematic, and lend support to those who take opposing views that are in line with my own values/principles. But if we reach the point where our nation can, collectively, put this man in office again, it will inform me as to just how low this country has slipped since my youth. It will inform my decision as to where I want to spend the rest of my life.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        So if the majority doesn't believe as you, you pick up your toys and leave?
        Pick up my toys? Why on earth would anyone be interested in "my toys?" Are you under the impression that my departure will somehow deprive the rest of the kids of some vital resource?

        Seer, if this country is heading in a direction I find problematic, I think I have the right to choose where and how I want to live out my days. It's a win-win, so I don't see why you would object. You get one less voice of opposition so you can continue to drive this country in your desired direction, and I get to live among people who's values I share in a country who's values I can take pride in. The problem is...?

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        But you were recently telling me you would be OK with the majority settling on Communism...
        Yes, I was - and I am. I also said, "I wouldn't want to live in such a country." If the majority here chose to eliminate personal property and make that the law of the land, I would respect their right to do so, and I would "take my toys and go," as you put it. Unlike you, I don't think I have the right to force my will on the majority. I will try to influence my fellow citizens so that the positions I hold dear ARE part of the majority. If I am unable to do so, then I will seek a place where that reality exists.

        I'm not sure why this is an issue for anyone...?
        I'm also not sure why anyone would think any differently. Why on earth would anyone condemn themselves to living in a context they find unpleasant?
        Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-19-2019, 09:51 AM.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Carpe, MOST of that will depend on who the Democrats put up for election. If they were to actually run a centrist - somebody who wasn't an extreme leftist nutjob, I don't think Trump would have a chance. It is every bit as much the fault of the Democrats as it is Trump or his supporters.
          We shall see. I think it is clear that Trump's base will vote for Trump - no matter what. Anti-Trumpers will vote for "anyone else," no matter what. How the center swings will be the deciding factor. But there is no one running that is in any way "worse" than Trump, IMO. If, out of that entire slate of candidates, Trump is again the choice...it will be time for me to move on.

          My wife and I have also been talking about Norway and Finland. Not sure why she introduced those two, given that she hates cold winters...
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Of some things, absolutely. Tolerance is not a binary switch that is "on" or "off." It is a continuum along which our views range. We will support what we can support, tolerate what we cannot support but can accept, and we will be intolerant of that we cannot support or accept - to varying degrees. I will always be intolerant of bigotry and racism. I will not permit it in my home, I will not listen to it without objecting, I will not support or endorse someone who promotes such views. I have no problem with being seen as "intolerant of bigotry/racism."
            You start of with "Tolerance is not binary", then you proceed to list some very binary choices. There's a less binary option --- be tolerant of the fact that some people are simply uninformed or misinformed and work with them.

            I would say the vast majority of the people I work with at the shelter are anti-Trump / pro-Obama (or whoever the current liberal Anointed One happens to be) and it would be very easy for me to sanctimoniously declare "I won't TOLERATE that hate" and refuse to work with them. I can't even count the times somebody I'm helping has bashed the very values I believe in, but the fact is (in my opinion) they have bought into a false belief system, and that doesn't change the fact that they are people in need. So I help them. I don't pick up my ball and bat and go home.

            Those who love/support Trump are entirely free to have their views.
            That's rather intolerant and binary. Not all of us who voted for Trump did it because we "supported" or "loved" him -- you know that.

            I will discuss those views, voice my opposition to those views I find problematic, and lend support to those who take opposing views that are in line with my own values/principles. But if we reach the point where our nation can, collectively, put this man in office again, it will inform me as to just how low this country has slipped since my youth. It will inform my decision as to where I want to spend the rest of my life.
            I think you're far more intolerant than you let on.

            And I'm OK having the last word on that!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              So if the majority doesn't believe as you, you pick up your toys and leave? But you were recently telling me you would be OK with the majority settling on Communism...
              Yep. What a completely bizarre and inconsistent worldview. He's defining "unAmerican (idiosyncratically as usual) "to deny that [Americans] have the right to [their] views and to whomever they want to elect," but in the same breath, if Americans don't pick the guy he wants, he's not sticking around? Wha?

              And what sort of definition is that, really? I'm absolutely certain that there are people the world over who would concede that Americans have the right as a highly developed, Democratic Republic to their views, and whomever they want to elect, but HATE America's views and duly elected officials, and would vow that they themselves are as anti-American as is possible.

              Get the feeling he hasn't really thought this through very well, and is kinda making things up as he goes along as he replies to people in the thread.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                What makes you think I have defended any of these things...?
                I don't remember you calling those instances out...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  We shall see. I think it is clear that Trump's base will vote for Trump - no matter what. Anti-Trumpers will vote for "anyone else," no matter what. How the center swings will be the deciding factor. But there is no one running that is in any way "worse" than Trump, IMO. If, out of that entire slate of candidates, Trump is again the choice...it will be time for me to move on.

                  My wife and I have also been talking about Norway and Finland. Not sure why she introduced those two, given that she hates cold winters...
                  My wife and I have been watching a (Netflix?) series on border issues in New Zealand and Australia. Wow, are THOSE people intolerant!!! They don't want anarchists, druggies, sex offenders, criminals, too much tobacco or alcohol, liars, thieves, Visa* abusers.....

                  Don't move to either of THOSE countries! They're SERIOUS about their borders!



                  *travel document, not credit card
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Yep. What a completely bizarre and inconsistent worldview. He's defining "unAmerican (idiosyncratically as usual) "to deny that [Americans] have the right to [their] views and to whomever they want to elect," but in the same breath, if Americans don't pick the guy he wants, he's not sticking around? Wha?
                    But he's tolerant and we're not!

                    And what sort of definition is that, really? I'm absolutely certain that there are people the world over who would concede that Americans have the right as a highly developed, Democratic Republic to their views, and whomever they want to elect, but HATE America's views and duly elected officials, and would vow that they themselves are as anti-American as is possible.

                    Get the feeling he hasn't really thought this through very well, and is kinda making things up as he goes along as he replies to people in the thread.
                    I think his wife is giving him his marching orders!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      But he's tolerant and we're not!



                      I think his wife is giving him his marching orders!
                      I mean, he can do whatever he wants. I don't care. But it's such an utterly childish response routinely trotted out when the guy in office is not the guy I want. It's just silly and over dramatic. But hey, whatever.

                      If I could afford it, I'd move back to Germany. Not a fan of their politics, and they have their own illegal immigration issues, but it's gorgeous, love the history, and the people.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I mean, he can do whatever he wants. I don't care. But it's such an utterly childish response routinely trotted out when the guy in office is not the guy I want. It's just silly and over dramatic. But hey, whatever.

                        If I could afford it, I'd move back to Germany. Not a fan of their politics, and they have their own illegal immigration issues, but it's gorgeous, love the history, and the people.
                        You don't have grandkids.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          You don't have grandkids.
                          Good point. My mother says there's something about her grand-treasures (as she calls my nieces) that makes them special in a way unlike having your own kids. I said, "yeah, you don't have to live with them, and you can give them back when you're done."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Good point. My mother says there's something about her grand-treasures (as she calls my nieces) that makes them special in a way unlike having your own kids. I said, "yeah, you don't have to live with them, and you can give them back when you're done."
                            Not only that, you can spoil them rotten and sugar them up -- THEN give them back.

                            I'll never forget the time we kept my two littlest grandtreasures, and I had wound them up like crazy --- we made "ultimate banana splits" and had sugary carbonated drinks, and cookies, and.... when it was time for their Mommy to come pick them up, her husband called cause they were on the way to the hospital with (what ended up being) her ruptured appendix.

                            THAT, sir, was a LONG long night.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Not only that, you can spoil them rotten and sugar them up -- THEN give them back.

                              I'll never forget the time we kept my two littlest grandtreasures, and I had wound them up like crazy --- we made "ultimate banana splits" and had sugary carbonated drinks, and cookies, and.... when it was time for their Mommy to come pick them up, her husband called cause they were on the way to the hospital with (what ended up being) her ruptured appendix.

                              THAT, sir, was a LONG long night.


                              Well if it's any consolation, I doubt the banana split did it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post


                                Well if it's any consolation, I doubt the banana split did it.
                                I dunno...



                                If ever there was a guiltier lookin' bunch...

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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