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Kids In Cages...

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  • #61
    This just in:


    Snopes admits Obama administration built cages
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

      I strongly suggest that anyone who reads this linked article ALSO go directly to Snopes and read the article they posted. This author gives the whole thing a strong right spin. While it is true that the cages were built n FY2015 (and we have known that for some time now), this happened when border facilities were being swamped by unattended children and something had to be done quickly so kids didn't hit the streets. You don't build entire buildings in a matter of days. Cages aren't great, but they are arguably better than turning the kids lose on the streets. And the policy was no more than 72 hours before the kids had to be moved on - and the period during which these were used was comparatively short.

      Most of the rest of Trump's claim shave been shown to be bogus. Neither Bush nor Obama ever had a policy of family separation. Every effort was made to provide those detained with humane basics. There is simply no comparison between the current administration and its policies and what went on before. As they say, the fish rots from the head down. Our current "head" stinks badly.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I strongly suggest that anyone who reads this linked article ALSO go directly to Snopes and read the article they posted. This author gives the whole thing a strong right spin. While it is true that the cages were built n FY2015 (and we have known that for some time now), this happened when border facilities were being swamped by unattended children and something had to be done quickly so kids didn't hit the streets. You don't build entire buildings in a matter of days. Cages aren't great, but they are arguably better than turning the kids lose on the streets. And the policy was no more than 72 hours before the kids had to be moved on - and the period during which these were used was comparatively short.

        Most of the rest of Trump's claim shave been shown to be bogus. Neither Bush nor Obama ever had a policy of family separation. Every effort was made to provide those detained with humane basics. There is simply no comparison between the current administration and its policies and what went on before. As they say, the fish rots from the head down. Our current "head" stinks badly.
        Translation: "Don't trust the article's 'spin', trust my spin!"
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Er, Leo, they aren't in the bigger cities like El Paso - Europeans don't often realize just how big Texas is.
          You're right. I didn't. It covers half the US border. That's rather impressive.

          These folks aren't here legally - that limits the types of shelter that can be used until a hearing.
          This answer I won't accept. I'm not asking you guys to build luxury condos for them. But having seven year old sleeping on concrete floors for days on end, without adult supervision or interaction. That's inexcusable.

          The increase is enormous - 144,000 in May alone, twice the number of the previous May - that's about 2.5 percent of Denmark's entire population cramming into our border towns in just one month!
          And around what, 0.4% of the Texan population? You're saying that for every 250 souls in Texas there's not room for the temporary assistance of 1?

          The US southern border is 3,145 km - a bit bigger than Denmark's 183 km - and most of that isn't populated.
          There aren't supplies on the ground in the middle of nowhere nor are there easy ways to quickly build new facilities. Of course it's an expensive border to patrol - it's freaking huge and largely empty.[/QUOTE]

          Texas is receiving refuges at a similar rate to the peak levels Denmark experienced during the Kosovo-Albania wars, and when people were coming here to escape ISIS. The US in total is receiving less than an order of magnitude the rate of refuges. And despite that rate, Denmark is doing a remarkably better job at taking care of them.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Walls are nothing new - and this isn't a vanity project. The existing walls/fencing has an unintended consequence - people attempting to cross in more remote areas - all of which are dangerous and most desert.
            But since there won't be a coast to coast wall, then that would still be the reality. No matter how you extend the fence, significant gaps would remains, tunnels would exist (as they do under the Israeli wall). People would go over, under and around the wall

            We cannot take in the entire population of Central America - not and keep the economy that allows us to fund humanitarian projects worldwide. And we DON'T want dead people in our deserts. We either hire a heck of a lot more agents and grant much greater power or we build a wall to deter as many as possible. The Border Patrol doesn't want to be a militia 0 they want a wall so they can do their jobs effectively.
            I don't know why you're talking about accepting "the entire population of Central America" I'm not proposing that. I'm just critical of a wall being a solution, and I don't see any reasonable excuses for the absolutely deplorable conditions in your refuge camps.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              You're right. I didn't. It covers half the US border. That's rather impressive.




              This answer I won't accept. I'm not asking you guys to build luxury condos for them. But having seven year old sleeping on concrete floors for days on end, without adult supervision or interaction. That's inexcusable.
              NOT what I said - the illegal entry part matters. That makes them detainees until the initial hearing. If they were refugees (they aren't) the Border Patrol would have more options and the communities could help out. But the illegal entry leaves us with either stopping the border crossings or building new detention facilities. We'll have to do a little of both, if the House ever gets its act together.


              And around what, 0.4% of the Texan population? You're saying that for every 250 souls in Texas there's not room for the temporary assistance of 1?
              Two problems here: 1) Most Texans don't live near the border (Texas is really big). 2) 'Illegal entry' is not just semantics - community solutions aren't on the table until AFTER the initial hearing which is within a few days of arrest. After that, most are released on their own recognizance or are returned to Mexico to await a full hearing.


              Texas is receiving refuges at a similar rate to the peak levels Denmark experienced during the Kosovo-Albania wars, and when people were coming here to escape ISIS. The US in total is receiving less than an order of magnitude the rate of refuges. And despite that rate, Denmark is doing a remarkably better job at taking care of them.
              Texas isn't taking in ANY refugees - very few are actually eligible for political asylum and virtually none meet the conditions for refugee status. Texas is getting economic migrants who are entering the US illegally. Also, note that current levels are double the norm - and we have had decades of those levels of migration. Really think Denmark could have coped with that?

              Plus Denmark took in refugees - the US is dealing with illegal immigration. Not the same thing and not the same mechanisms in place. Denmark is in the EU, I think, so other countries do its immigration vetting for it, correct?
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                But since there won't be a coast to coast wall, then that would still be the reality. No matter how you extend the fence, significant gaps would remains, tunnels would exist (as they do under the Israeli wall). People would go over, under and around the wall
                Leo, this might be true but has little bearing. The assumption that we can't build a wall along the entire border is silly - the ancient Chinese managed it without modern materials or equipment. Would such a barrier stop everyone? Nope. Would it stop a heck of a lot? Absolutely.

                You're also forgetting the natural barrier - which sadly already stops many the hard way and hopefully gives many more pause: the desert. Israel is arid but tiny. Texas is freaking huge and desolate. It's REALLY dangerous to try crossing it. So even if only partial, a wall will deter and stop much of the flood of illegal entries.


                I don't know why you're talking about accepting "the entire population of Central America" I'm not proposing that. I'm just critical of a wall being a solution, and I don't see any reasonable excuses for the absolutely deplorable conditions in your refuge camps.
                We don't have refugee camps - and frankly, we are doing the best we can for the few days of detention at the moment. Sure, needs improvement and we are trying to do that now - but stopping the influx is one of those improvements. 50,000 people a month is the median - this has been going on for decades and is getting much worse. Those are the ones we stop - over time we're looking at incredible levels of immigration.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • #68

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Leo, this might be true but has little bearing. The assumption that we can't build a wall along the entire border is silly - the ancient Chinese managed it without modern materials or equipment. Would such a barrier stop everyone? Nope. Would it stop a heck of a lot? Absolutely.

                    You're also forgetting the natural barrier - which sadly already stops many the hard way and hopefully gives many more pause: the desert. Israel is arid but tiny. Texas is freaking huge and desolate. It's REALLY dangerous to try crossing it. So even if only partial, a wall will deter and stop much of the flood of illegal entries.
                    So, three thoughts come to mind. First, someone entering the country to seek asylum is not "illegal." Our laws permit that to happen anywhere along the border. All someone need do is step into the U.S., then turn themselves in and request asylum. They do not become illegal unless they do NOT turn themselves in, or overstay a visa, or do not return for processing, etc.

                    Then, let's give some thought to what a wall will stop. It will stop the casual - but it will not stop anyone with a vested interest in entering. Anyone with enough motivation to overcome the barrier will continue to do so. Drugs and smuggling have a powerful motivator: money. Do asylum seekers have the same motivation? If not, then what we are stopping is those seeking help - and what we are not stopping is those seeking to do harm.

                    Finally, while the Chinese put up one heck of a wall, they also didn't have the Rio Grande to contend with. We cannot put the wall on the Mexican side. We cannot put it down the center of the river. That leaves the American side, far enough back from the river to avoid damage due to flooding. So we basically isolate the U.S. from the river. Meanwhile, we do not avoid the immigrant problem because we leave a swath of U.S. territory outside the wall. So immigrants can still set foot on U.S. soil and request asylum - which (as per current law) we are required to honor with an asylum review.

                    The wall is not, IMO, the answer. It's a multi-billion dollar vanity project to appeal to Trump's base. There are other, more significant things we could/should be doing to manage illegal immigration.

                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    We don't have refugee camps - and frankly, we are doing the best we can for the few days of detention at the moment. Sure, needs improvement and we are trying to do that now - but stopping the influx is one of those improvements. 50,000 people a month is the median - this has been going on for decades and is getting much worse. Those are the ones we stop - over time we're looking at incredible levels of immigration.
                    The situation at the border is heartbreaking, no question about it. But I have zero confidence that this president and his immigrant-hating administration is doing all they can to manage the crisis. And the "crisis" is still a fraction of the number of people entering the U.S. at peak immigration in 2000, during which period over 1.6 million persons were caught crossing the southern border, most of them Mexicans. In 2018 non-Mexicans outpaced Mexicans, and you should look at where they were coming from and how those nations got to be as bad as they have become. You will find that the U.S. does not have clean hands here.

                    I've outlined before what I think is the right immigration approach, so I won't repeat it here. But suffice it to say, a wall isn't a useful part of the picture, IMO.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      The wall is not, IMO, the answer. It's a multi-billion dollar vanity project to appeal to Trump's base. There are other, more significant things we could/should be doing to manage illegal immigration.
                      Why do you keep saying that when the present Border Chief and Obama's Border Chief say that the wall is both necessary and will be useful?

                      I've outlined before what I think is the right immigration approach, so I won't repeat it here. But suffice it to say, a wall isn't a useful part of the picture, IMO.
                      Your opinion as opposed to the experts on the ground?
                      Last edited by seer; 07-08-2019, 06:45 PM.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Why do you keep saying that when the present Border Chief and Obama's Border Chief say that the wall is both necessary and will be useful?
                        Because I disagree with them...?

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Your opinion as opposed to the experts on the ground?
                        Nice thing about experts - with a little effort you can find one to say pretty much anything. I prefer to look at the offered reasons and the associated explanations. So far, nothing I've seen makes me think a wall is the answer.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Nice thing about experts - with a little effort you can find one to say pretty much anything. I prefer to look at the offered reasons and the associated explanations. So far, nothing I've seen makes me think a wall is the answer.
                          These are not simply experts they are experts who are on the ground. So what makes you believe that you understand the problem, and possible solutions, better than them? And they are not saying that the wall is the only piece of the puzzle, just an important piece.

                          https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/02/...hy-walls-work/
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            These are not simply experts they are experts who are on the ground. So what makes you believe that you understand the problem, and possible solutions, better than them?
                            Because I have a mind and don't bow to "experts" just because they are "experts" when the information at hand suggests otherwise. I gave you a list of reasons why the wall won't work along the Rio Grande. Those were not flights of fancy - they also came from "experts." I found their arguments more compelling.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            And they are not saying that the wall is the only piece of the puzzle, just an important piece.

                            https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/02/...hy-walls-work/
                            I realize that - and in some places it makes sense. Many (most?) of those places have been built. I'm sure there are a few places where more wall could help and it should be constructed there. Along the Rio is not one of them, for the reasons cited.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Because I have a mind and don't bow to "experts" just because they are "experts" when the information at hand suggests otherwise.
                              Yeah, you know more than the experts on site because you have Google.

                              As Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously quipped

                              Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Yeah, you know more than the experts on site because you have Google.

                                As Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously quipped

                                Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
                                Interesting. I actually laid out all of my reasons for why I believe as I do. So far, all that has come back in response is "why don't you believe the experts?" My philosophy professors would have called that an "appeal to authority," which is a logical fallacy. Feel free to outline any fact you think I have put forward that is in error.

                                As for "Google," I'm pretty sure the experts use it too...

                                Be that as it may, first, I didn't say I know more than the experts - I said I disagreed with them. Those are not the same thing. Second, I actually use Google daily to maintain my own expertise in my own chosen field. I'm pretty sure it can be successfully used to gather information and arrive at opinions and conclusions. That is, after all, the point.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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