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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Because it isn't about a government by the people. It starts out that way, promising the workers equality, but ends up a totalitarian dictatorship.
    So then you're not talking about communism - you're talking about totalitarianism. I am not advocating for totalitarianism (or communism, for that matter). I am noting that there is nothing inconsistent about communism and "America," except the hype that came out of McCarthyism.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    The workers need a leader to guide them, a government to control the means of production to assure equality and so on. Can you name one communist country that is "by the people" that has free and open democratic elected officials?
    Nope. And that was not the issue. I also cannot name one country that selected communism as a democratically selected model. As far as I know, it has never happened.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      But so what?
      You asked why I consider one "unamerican" and the other not. I answered..

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      The abolition of person property takes away a freedom, why should freedom of speech remain, especially for a minority if the majority voted that way?
      No one is advocating selective removal of freedoms, Seer. You're adding things. What I said was, if the citizens of the nation decide to eliminate personal property, they can do that without being "unamerican." Loss of personal property does not prevent people from freely participating in a government for/of/by the people. Loss of freedom to speak does. It's not a complicated concept.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      That is not my point Carp, there are freedoms, that if the majority took away, you would not call un-american.
      There are freedoms that, if the population of a nation said, "we want to eliminate those" would not be "unamerican," IMO. Private property is one. Guns is another. Indeed, pretty much anything that does not compromise a person's ability to participate in government.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      So if the majority disenfranchised the minority when it came to petitioning the government, why would that be un-american in your world?
      You are shifting from "which liberties" to "selectively disenfranchising groups," so you are making an apples-to-oranges comparison. ANY laws or policies that are designed to benefit one group at the expense of another, or to disenfranchise one group to the benefit of another, would be unjust in any society/country. It's not simply "unamerican." It's simply "unjust" (unless you want to argue that only the American experiment is a just one?
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        She lost to Trump. She was the front runner, and lost to Trump. No one took him seriously - and she still lost to Trump.
        I'm aware. The point is...?

        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        It's hard to imagine a worse candidate - heck, she beat out Bob Dole's 'But He's a Bad Person' campaign for Worst Way to Lose an Election.
        There is no question she was not a good candidate. My point is that she wasn't a bad candidate because she lost. There were many good candidates in history who did not win their election. She lost because she was a bad candidate.
        Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-18-2019, 04:04 PM.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Ah! I see you have your own personal definition of communism. Why am I not surprised. I can see there is no way to discuss this topic with you since we would be talking past each other. I will let you have the last word.
          Communism: a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

          Communism: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed

          Communism: a theory advocating elimination of private property

          Communism: political and economic doctrine that aims to replace private property and a profit-based economy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of a society. Communism is thus a form of socialism...

          There are many more - but none of them was "made up" by me.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            How do you institute Communism with out being totalitarian?
            Why do you think you have to be totalitarian to institute communism?

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            You would literally have to use force of law to prevent me from selling my pig to my neighbor. It is government control from top to bottom, no freedom...
            The force of law is used today to prevent you from doing any number of things. Again, if the government is a representative democracy, it is still off/for/by the people. If the desire is to have a country without personal property, and that applies equally to all, then who are you to say "I don't agree so you have to do it my way?"

            After all - if you don't like what the people want, you can always leave. Isn't that the latest mantra?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I'm aware. The point is...?



              There is no question she was not a good candidate. My point is that she wasn't a bad candidate because she lost. There were many good candidates in history who did not win their election. She lost because she was a bad candidate.
              Yeppers - which reflects badly on the Democrat Party that put her on the ticket.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Yeppers - which reflects badly on the Democrat Party that put her on the ticket.
                She was certainly a superior candidate to Bernie Sanders, assuming for the moment that was the only choice.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Yeppers - which reflects badly on the Democrat Party that put her on the ticket.
                  Again - not even in the same league. Yeah - Democrats could/should have made a better choice in terms of organization, political savvy, openness, energy, general likability, and a variety of other factors. But that is nothing compared to the immoral, corrupt, win-at-any-cost, self-serving, narcissistic, chronically-lying, democracy-undermining, racist, slug of a human-being currently occupying the highest office in the land.

                  The "party of family values" has essentially lost any claim to that title - and apparently doesn't care.


                  BTW: This is a well-thought-through opinion piece on the current situation. It echoes many of the things I've said in this thread, plus adds a pretty scathing indictment of Democrat ineffectiveness.
                  Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-18-2019, 04:36 PM.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    She was certainly a superior candidate to Bernie Sanders, assuming for the moment that was the only choice.
                    Which doesn't help Carpe's case.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Again - not even in the same league. Yeah - Democrats could/should have made a better choice in terms of organization, political savvy, openness, energy, general likability, and a variety of other factors. But that is nothing compared to the immoral, corrupt, win-at-any-cost, self-serving, narcissistic, chronically-lying, democracy-undermining, racist, slug of a human-being currently occupying the highest office in the land.

                      The "party of family values" has essentially lost any claim to that title - and apparently doesn't care.
                      Dude, running Clinton was a huge part of why Trump won - it was almost literally a gimme since she's every bit as bad as you think Trump is. She's worse than I think Trump is - and I still think he's a jerk.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Dude, running Clinton was a huge part of why Trump won - it was almost literally a gimme since she's every bit as bad as you think Trump is. She's worse than I think Trump is - and I still think he's a jerk.
                        We disagree on the emphasized portion.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Why do you think you have to be totalitarian to institute communism?
                          Can you name one Communist country that wasn't totalitarian? Like with the Communist countries of the past you will always have a minority, often a significant minority, that still crave freedom. Freedom to make their own way apart from the state. And the state can't allow that - therefore, the gulags and the killing fields. Freedom of speech, as history shows, must also go by the way side - the state can not abide dissent.

                          And they call for the forcible overthrow existing social conditions:

                          The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

                          https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...festo/ch04.htm
                          And tell me Carp, where does Marx or Engels talk about the common man voting? Or Democracy?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            She was certainly a superior candidate to Bernie Sanders, assuming for the moment that was the only choice.
                            No, I don't think so. Bernie would have excited the progressive base in a way which Hillary did not do. This time Elizabeth Warren, a.k.a Pocahontas, will hopefully take the nomination with Bernie being the second choice.
                            Last edited by JimL; 07-18-2019, 04:44 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              We disagree on the emphasized portion.
                              Yep - but you're wrong!


                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                No, I don't think so. Bernie would have excited the progressive base in a way which Hillary did not do. This time Elizabeth Warren, a.k.a Pocahontas, will hopefully take the nomination with Bernie being the second choice.
                                Wow, I actually agree completely. i still don't think Bernie would have won - but you're quite correct that he had more power to excite his base.


                                I even agree on the second point. Of course, I have different reasons for wanting that ticket...
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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