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  1. #551
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And, there we have it! "I was planning on leaving eventually anyway, but Trump!"
    You might want to read the rest...


    ...or not...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #552
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You might want to read the rest...


    ...or not...
    I did --- you were already planning on leaving anyway.


    But TRUMP!!!!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #553
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I did --- you were already planning on leaving anyway.

    But TRUMP!!!!
    If that is what you got from the post, then you might want to look into some reading comprehension courses...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #554
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    ...

    There's plenty of good reason to move to another country. This isn't really one of them. I think assuming Trump wins, it's likely that long term it'll go very badly for Conservatives. I believe people will look back on this presidency as one they'll not want to repeat, and we'll see a dramatic swing to the left the prevents it from ever coming to fruition. That's one of the (many) reasons I'm anti-Trump. The right might get what they want short term, but I think it's going to cost them massively down the road.
    I disagree. Frankly, Trump reminds me more and more of Reagan - who I only grudgingly admit was a better president than I'd given him credit for being. REALLY grudgingly.

    Anyway, I doubt the long term effects you foresee. Most people move on quickly - the effects you are talking about are largely self limiting to the base. In this case, to the far, far left base that many Democrats don't identify with at all.

    Trump isn't the issue - the Democrat Party is in serious trouble. Hating Trump gives them a desperately needed rallying cry - but what do they do when he's gone?

    They've lost their vanguard; the new 'candidates' for the position are eating each other and they have no plan that sells well. Obama ruined the chances of going single payer (thankfully!) and seriously set back healthcare as an issue. People care about it but they saw their costs skyrocket and they aren't keen for the next experiment. Climate change is a mess as a vanguard issue - even if you accept the premise, the US is incapable of stopping it alone. Reality keeps getting in the way and people aren't willing to destroy their own livelihoods to not actually save the planet. They are a joke in foreign policy - made worse by the recent one eighty on war policies that has irritated their moderates no end.

    The Court is showing definite signs of being more constructionist - which is bad news all the way around for Democrats. It is likely to undermine and overturn many of the 'accomplishments' of the Democrats - especially if Trump is re-elected and gets another appointment, both of which have a fair shot of happening. Then what to they run on? Trump's gone - everything they 'accomplished', including Obamacare, is gone - how do you appeal to the middle with that record?

    The rise of the Internet and the decline of the TV monopoly on media is a net benefit to conservatives - a lot of centrists really have no idea what conservatives actually believe and more exposure may very well increase conservative ranks. Millennials are in their 30's - the odds favor most of them becoming more conservative as time progresses - and the chances to be favorably exposed to conservative thought will improve those odds. Not to mention Fox being a ratings champion at the moment - it's milquetoast for conservatives but a safe peek in for centrists and liberals alike.

    Now, I will caveat that I'm not a prophet and I could be wrong. Heck, we could both be wrong and something else entirely develops. But that's part of what makes politics both fascinating and incredibly frustrating.

  5. #555
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    So then you're not talking about communism - you're talking about totalitarianism. I am not advocating for totalitarianism (or communism, for that matter). I am noting that there is nothing inconsistent about communism and "America," except the hype that came out of McCarthyism.
    No, I am saying that communism always ends up being run by a dictator. Can you name one country that hasn't?
    Quote Originally Posted by sparko
    The workers need a leader to guide them, a government to control the means of production to assure equality and so on. Can you name one communist country that is "by the people" that has free and open democratic elected officials?
    Nope. And that was not the issue. I also cannot name one country that selected communism as a democratically selected model. As far as I know, it has never happened.
    You were the one arguing that it is compatible with America's government and democracy. I guess you are wrong. As far as a country democratically selecting communism? I would say the closest I can think of is Venezuela. Once Maduro was elected however, he became a dictator and it is no longer a democracy, but a socialist hell and a defacto communist country as the government owns the farms and production.

  6. #556
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    If that is what you got from the post, then you might want to look into some reading comprehension courses...
    Yes, because you are the great communicator, and NOBODY here ever gets confused about what you're trying to communicate.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  7. Amen Adrift, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  8. #557
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - I am hoping against hope that he is shown the door by a landslide in 2020.

    If he's not...my home will be on the market the next day and I will be out of the country by the inauguration.
    Somehow I think that promise is as empty as you saying someone can have the last word.

  9. #558
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    I disagree. Frankly, Trump reminds me more and more of Reagan - who I only grudgingly admit was a better president than I'd given him credit for being. REALLY grudgingly.
    Reagan? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Anyway, I doubt the long term effects you foresee. Most people move on quickly - the effects you are talking about are largely self limiting to the base. In this case, to the far, far left base that many Democrats don't identify with at all.

    Trump isn't the issue - the Democrat Party is in serious trouble. Hating Trump gives them a desperately needed rallying cry - but what do they do when he's gone?

    They've lost their vanguard; the new 'candidates' for the position are eating each other and they have no plan that sells well. Obama ruined the chances of going single payer (thankfully!) and seriously set back healthcare as an issue. People care about it but they saw their costs skyrocket and they aren't keen for the next experiment. Climate change is a mess as a vanguard issue - even if you accept the premise, the US is incapable of stopping it alone. Reality keeps getting in the way and people aren't willing to destroy their own livelihoods to not actually save the planet. They are a joke in foreign policy - made worse by the recent one eighty on war policies that has irritated their moderates no end.

    The Court is showing definite signs of being more constructionist - which is bad news all the way around for Democrats. It is likely to undermine and overturn many of the 'accomplishments' of the Democrats - especially if Trump is re-elected and gets another appointment, both of which have a fair shot of happening. Then what to they run on? Trump's gone - everything they 'accomplished', including Obamacare, is gone - how do you appeal to the middle with that record?

    The rise of the Internet and the decline of the TV monopoly on media is a net benefit to conservatives - a lot of centrists really have no idea what conservatives actually believe and more exposure may very well increase conservative ranks. Millennials are in their 30's - the odds favor most of them becoming more conservative as time progresses - and the chances to be favorably exposed to conservative thought will improve those odds. Not to mention Fox being a ratings champion at the moment - it's milquetoast for conservatives but a safe peek in for centrists and liberals alike.

    Now, I will caveat that I'm not a prophet and I could be wrong. Heck, we could both be wrong and something else entirely develops. But that's part of what makes politics both fascinating and incredibly frustrating.
    Yeah - I think you're probably wrong on most of this, except the court. There is no doubt the court(s) has(have) skewed right, but that is a natural consequence of McConnell seat theft and the 2016 election. What is amazing to me is that McConnell is not even shy about noting that if a SCOTUS seat opens up in 2020, he will see to it that it is filled - completely exposing the lie of his 2016 claims. It's almost as if the Republican politicians have become so confident (or scared of Trump?), they don't even need to obscure the lies they tell anymore.

    What is happening today in the Democratic party is the same thing that happened in 2016 with the sea of Republicans: positioning and differentiating to secure the nomination. Yes, there is a rift in the Democratic party - but it's no better/worse than the rift in the Republican party that made it impossible for them to move on healthcare (or almost anything else) when they had both houses of Congress.

    As best I can tell, Trump is trying for a "Hail Mary" by trying to "tie Democrats to the Squad." I think his political calculus is flawed. That being said, I find the fact that the current gap between Democratic front runners and Trump is within single-digit percentage points more than a little dismaying. It does not say much for the United States I grew up in that Trump is not only president, but that close to half the electorate is cheering almost everything he does: good, bad, and very ugly.

    But you know, I realize I'm tired of Trump - and tired of the political climate. I think I'll go weed a garden and finish the course I'm writing. Then I might go see a movie.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #559
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I'm actually already looking at Australia, Canada, Tanzania, and Belize as possible semi-permanent bases. I'm crossing my fingers none of it will be necessary and this country will come to its senses and put a stop to what is going on. We'll see...
    Yeah I hear Belize is nice.

    Gee, I wonder why the people running for their lives from Guatemala didn't head there instead?


  11. #560
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    No, I am saying that communism always ends up being run by a dictator. Can you name one country that hasn't?
    Because, AFAIK, communism has always arisen from a dictator/totalitarian state. I know of no country where a democracy or representative democracy has freely selected a complete communist model. Do you? As I noted - totalitarianism/dictatorships naturally gravitate to communism fr its messaging. That does not mean communism is only consistent with a totalitarian state. Read Marx.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You were the one arguing that it is compatible with America's government and democracy.
    I am - and it is - if it is freely selected by the people of America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I guess you are wrong. As far as a country democratically selecting communism? I would say the closest I can think of is Venezuela. Once Maduro was elected however, he became a dictator and it is no longer a democracy, but a socialist hell and a defacto communist country as the government owns the farms and production.
    I don't know enough about the history of Venezuela to make an informed response, so I'll leave the last word on this to you until such time as I can educate myself.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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