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  1. #391
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    No she didn't. She said she didn't want blacks and browns who didn't think like her idea of black or brownness.
    Her actual words, BTC, were:

    This is the time to shake that table. ... We donít need any more brown faces that donít want to be a brown voice,Ē
    ďWe donít need any more black faces that donít want to be a black voice.


    Where, exactly, does this say "I don't want blacks/browns who don't think like me?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And she didn't want anyone who didn't agree.

    It's blatant race baiting. How can you not see it?
    What it is, BTC, is blatant mind reading on your part - and assuming the worst of another person. How can you not see it?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #392
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    I will say that, in this very thread, you have very nearly accused "the right" of being a would-be murderous mob, so maybe your own rhetoric is more unamerican than you think (by what I see as your own standards).
    Where exactly did I do that...?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #393
    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Where exactly did I do that...?
    Go back and reread your own posts in the last couple pages. If you haven't done that, you've either come awfully close or have given the impression.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  4. #394
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    Go back and reread your own posts in the last couple pages. If you haven't done that, you've either come awfully close or have given the impression.
    How could you misread Carpe's posts so badly, you monster?
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  5. #395
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    One point at a time. Carp would you consider Communist ideology un-American?
    Inherently? No. I don't have your knee-jerk reaction to political buzz words. The heart of Americanism is looking at alternatives, discussing them, and taking the best of them and leaving the rest. I doubt we will ever adopt "communism" as a nationwide model. It's not in our DNA. But if the American people were to decide that is how they want America to function, nothing could be more American than them having the right to select that as the type of government they/we want.

    Realistically, I doubt communism will ever be more than a niche model adopt by some people in small communities, as it has been in the U.S., from pretty much the outset. And elements of communism CAN help to offset the worst tendencies of capitalism.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #396
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    Go back and reread your own posts in the last couple pages. If you haven't done that, you've either come awfully close or have given the impression.
    OK - consider them reread.

    Now where exactly did I do that again?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #397
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Her actual words, BTC, were:

    This is the time to shake that table. ... We donít need any more brown faces that donít want to be a brown voice,Ē
    ďWe donít need any more black faces that donít want to be a black voice.
    What's wrong with a brown voice being an AMERICAN voice? Who gets to decide what a black or brown or queer voice is?

    This is beyond nuts.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  8. Amen Teallaura, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  9. #398
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    What's wrong with a brown voice being an AMERICAN voice?
    Who says it's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Who gets to decide what a black or brown or queer voice is?
    The person with the voice...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This is beyond nuts.
    On that we agree - but I doubt we're talking about the same thing...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #399
    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    OK - consider them reread.

    Now where exactly did I do that again?
    From the context of the discussion, I'd say that the following posts (and portions thereof) clearly point to your fear that the modern right is capable of massive, extreme levels of violence for political reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    And yet - that is the president you are supporting. In the past couple weeks, he has made-up or cherry-picked things these four women have said, and is now galvanizing his base to chant "send her back" or "send them back" concerning three native-born, American citizens who were duly elected to the offices they hold.

    Someone recently said, "wake up America - you are moving towards a nation where 1/3 of the population would happily kill 1/3 of the population while 1/3 watches." When I first heard that, I thought, "ridiculous...never here."

    Now I have to admit that I find myself wondering...
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I don't think we're there yet, hence "I find myself wondering." But the language coming from Trump & Co. is the language reminiscent of some very ugly people in world history. And like those people, he has a significant base that is consistently defending him, picking up his lie/hate-based chants, and denying that anything is wrong.

    Something is badly wrong...
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Trump's core base is not showing a great deal of discretion in its hatred. The events of the past few days seem to me more than testament to that reality. Trump is whipping them into a frenzy of rejection for natural-born citizens - not even immigrants - yet using the "send them back" language used for immigrants and other non-native people.



    Seer - you're not hating "American haters." You're hating Americans who disagree with you, and have voiced opinions about how they would like things to be. Trump has labeled them "haters." I have not seen a single thing these women have said that leads me to think "they hate America."

    You're becoming part of the mob, Seer. You're better than that...



    So "whataboutism" is your only response...? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    So what, exactly, is "anti-American" about these four women, or any of the messages you are hearing?



    The U.S. is housing people in deplorable conditions that have many of the hallmarks of "concentration camps" on the southern border. It needs attention. How is that "anti-American?" We should not be tolerating separating families; we should not be tolerating not providing basic requirements for daily living.



    Many Trump supporters are neo-Nazis and racists. They have been highly complimentary of Trump's recent behavior. Many of the things happening in America today are reminiscent of the early days of the Nazi regime. Those who do not pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it. It requires a love for this country to challenge it NOT to become what it used to stand against. As for "deplorable," old news...stupid political comment.



    You are free to point out any place where I have used "whataboutism."
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    So, no. Our nation is a mixture of political philosophies and types. We are largely capitalistic, but use socialistic models for some aspects of our country (highway system, medicare, etc.). As Americans, we tend to take "what works." You may not like some of it, but advocating for policies that work is not "unamerican." It does mean that some of us disagree with you.



    America, as a country, has engaged in evil racist practices. Do you deny this? Some Americans remain racist. America has included McCarthyism, slavery, Japanese internment camps, and a long list of other things none of us should be proud of. The cost of freedom is constant vigilance. We can return to any of these practices with very little excuse - as we did then. Calling out tendencies in our society to return to such things is not "unamerican."



    So I'm not sure what you are saying here. If it's "anti-semitism is unamerican," I agree. All forms of racism/ethnicism/sexism are not in the best spirit of what America should be about. If you're saying that it's unamerican that Jews control congress, then I am stunned. I am hoping that is NOT what you meant.



    So you're arguing from silence? I have no idea what was going through the young lady's mind when she elected to ignore the news person dogging her up the hallway. It could have been, "I love Antifa, hate ICE, and love that they firebombed it" or it could have been "I'm late for that meeting and this relentless news person is just going to make me later." Personally, I think she should have spoken because she left herself vulnerable to this type of attack. But I have no idea WHY she did not respond - and neither do you.



    IMO, accusing someone of being "unamerican" because they have the audacity to disagree is a quintessentially unamerican act. A leader, or potential leaders, of the executive branch, which includes the Department of Justice" advocating for screaming "lock her up" before due process has been engaged is a quintessentially unamerican act. Lying about what people have said/done and then using it as an excuse to foster hatred is a quintessentially unamerican act. Advocating for violence on others because they utter words you disagree with is a quintessentially unamerican act. Saying "I think America is wrong and could do better" is a quintessentially American act.



    A flood of people seeking refuge is a situation to be dealt with. You will have to go a long way to convince me that a country that can put people on the moon; field a defense force in a matter of hours; build the North American Highway system; and provide over 24K temporary shelters, $1.5B in financial support, and process 87,000 flood claims within 30 days of a major hurricane (Houston) cannot provide soap, toothbrushes, food, and decent shelter for an ongoing/known situation MONTHS after it began.

    The problem is not our ability - it is our will. The result is a situation that is (according to actual ISIS detainees) worse than how they were treated at the hands of ISIS.



    Why does the percentage matter? The fact is, Trump has the support of neo-Nazis across the country, and they are delighted with his pronouncements and statements. If I were president, and found myself so loved by such a group, I would have to seriously ask me just what it is about my message that so appeals to these people. They are not people to court, or appease, IMO.



    More whataboutism?

    Antifa is a reaction group - reacting to facism in the form of Neo-Nazism. I deplore their methods because I don't think violence is the proper response to verbal and physical violence. But there is not even a comparison here. If facism in the U.S., did not exist, Antifa would have no reason for existing. And I have to admit to beginning to share their fears. History has shown us that when facism and nazism get a foot in the door - very bad things happen. The right is picking up more and more of the language of the neo-nazi thugs, and is embracing more and more of their positions. I have some real concerns about where this country is heading.



    So you should...
    If you truly see nothing about any of this that could come across in a way similar to how I framed it, then I'll say a couple things:

    1. I think you should seriously reconsider your fear and apparent hatred of the right. It seems disproportionate and unamerican to so categorically demonize people for disagreeing with you.
    2. Last word to you.

    Edit: Ok, I went back 4 pages, not a couple. My mistake there.
    Last edited by Zymologist; 07-18-2019 at 09:00 AM.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  11. #400
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Inherently? No. I don't have your knee-jerk reaction to political buzz words. The heart of Americanism is looking at alternatives, discussing them, and taking the best of them and leaving the rest. I doubt we will ever adopt "communism" as a nationwide model. It's not in our DNA. But if the American people were to decide that is how they want America to function, nothing could be more American than them having the right to select that as the type of government they/we want.
    Yet Communism is in direct contradiction to Constitutional principles of private property rights. And that is un-american.

    https://www.pbs.org/tpt/constitution...operty-rights/
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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