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  • #91
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    https://www.logicalfallacies.info/re...-to-authority/

    Appeal to Authority

    Explanation

    An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.

    Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

    However, the informal fallacy occurs only when the authority cited either (a) is not an authority, or (b) is not an authority on the subject on which he is being cited. If someone either isn’t an authority at all, or isn’t an authority on the subject about which they’re speaking, then that undermines the value of their testimony.

    Example

    (1) Marilyn vos Savant says that no philosopher has ever successfully resolved the problem of evil.
    Therefore:
    (2) No philosopher has ever successfully resolved the problem of evil.

    This argument is fallacious because Marilyn vos Savant, though arguably an authority, is not an authority on the philosophy of religion. Her judgement that no philosopher has ever successfully resolved the problem of evil therefore carries little evidential weight; if there were a philosopher somewhere that had successfully resolved the problem then there’s a good chance that Marilyn vos Savant wouldn’t know about it. Her testimony is therefore insufficient to establish the conclusion of the argument.
    Exactly.

    Thanks!
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Exactly.

      Thanks!
      Are the experts that seer referenced not actually authorities or are not authorities on the subject on which they are being cited?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Are the experts that seer referenced not actually authorities or are not authorities on the subject on which they are being cited?
        Your question appears to focus on the informal aspect of the fallacy. From your post: "Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true."

        That was my point. If someone wants to put forward the arguments an expert has made and argue their merits, they should do so. If the argument is, "who are you to disagree with the experts?" then my response will be, "a person with a mind and the ability to read and understand." Argue the merits - not the person.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          If they had let Trump build his wall, there would be no need for detention camps.
          Do you mean the wall that mexico was going to pay for.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Fair enough. I jumped to the conclusion you were responding to my exchange. My bad.
            Fair enough.


            Follow-through. If there is none - it will be the same.
            Yup.

            Democrats would oppose most of that so I don't see it as viable. And yes, Republicans will also oppose parts - which makes it worse.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              I think the Democrat's slogan is "Sure. We make the laws. But we don't want you to enforce them."
              The President can enforce them right now by enforcing the law that prohibits business from hiring undocumented immigrants, which he has working at his own businesses, which would stop them from coming in the first place. The situation is that they are needed and the government knows that they are needed and that they are an asset to the country, and so they ignore the law. The President has exacerbated the problem for political reasons which is evident from the onslaught at the border since he took office.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Obama sure didn't. He just ignored whatever laws he didn't like.
                You mean like enforcing the law against hiring undocumented immigrants like Trump is doing?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Fair enough.

                  Yup.

                  Democrats would oppose most of that so I don't see it as viable. And yes, Republicans will also oppose parts - which makes it worse.
                  I was merely listing the steps I believe should be taken to address the problem. I am under no illusion that anything will be done about immigration in our current political climate - by the left OR the right.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Walls are pretty easy to defeat. I know of gated communities in South Africa, where the residents protect themselves from the criminal elements of society by hiding behind walls
                    8ft wall with another 6ft of razor wire and electrified fencing (with the level set to "knock out the TRex").
                    It gets defeated by ladders and thick rubber mats.....


                    (just an observation, no real suggestions for you)
                    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                    1 Corinthians 16:13

                    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                    -Ben Witherington III

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      So, first, I didn't say "fencing cannot work." If a discussion is to be had, it might be best if the discussion is actually related to what I have said...just a thought.

                      What I did say was that Trump's wall is not going to solve the immigration problem, and cannot even be reasonably used for much of the southern border (i.e., along the length of the Rio Grande), for the reasons I cited, which are: a) there is no place build it that does not produce serious negative consequences (isolation from the river and/or white-elephant maintenance costs, emminent domain issues, etc.), b) it doesn't stop/address the asylum issue, and c) there are swaths of the border where wall cannot be built because it is reservation land. Where it can be deployed usefully, it should be, but as best I can tell many (most?) of those areas have already been built up and simply need repair/maintenance (i.e., in/near major cities and easy points of crossing). There are other tools that could/should be used to address the immigration issue. I've listed several of them in previous posts:

                      1) Address our historical involvement in the countries where much of this exodus is occurring
                      2) Create programs to enhance quality of living in those same countries
                      3) Bolster immigration resources to process asylum claims quickly (1-2 weeks max)
                      4) Supplement the wall as necessary and focus heavily on detection technology
                      5) Adjust immigration quotas to align with employment needs/opportunities
                      6) Create a simple process for seasonal workers (i.e., the Delta "Clear" model)
                      7) Implement an arduous path to citizenship for existing undocumented immigrants
                      8) Implement a path to citizenship for DACA people
                      9) Adopt a zero-tolerance policy for all future illegal immigrants of any kind
                      10) Adopt a zero tolerance policy for any current immigrant that runs afoul of the law for anything more than a misdemeanor.
                      My summary wasn't too far off regarding your feelings on the wall. You seem to think no solution is somehow preferable to an imperfect one.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        My summary wasn't too far off regarding your feelings on the wall. You seem to think no solution is somehow preferable to an imperfect one.
                        Umm...no. And continually repeating this mantra won't make it true.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                          Walls are pretty easy to defeat. I know of gated communities in South Africa, where the residents protect themselves from the criminal elements of society by hiding behind walls
                          8ft wall with another 6ft of razor wire and electrified fencing (with the level set to "knock out the TRex").
                          It gets defeated by ladders and thick rubber mats.....


                          (just an observation, no real suggestions for you)
                          An imperfect solution, to be sure, but still a vastly superior deterrent than no wall.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Your question appears to focus on the informal aspect of the fallacy. From your post: "Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true."

                            That was my point. If someone wants to put forward the arguments an expert has made and argue their merits, they should do so. If the argument is, "who are you to disagree with the experts?" then my response will be, "a person with a mind and the ability to read and understand." Argue the merits - not the person.
                            I can't find anywhere in this thread where someone asserted "because the experts claimed so-and-so, it is therefore guaranteed to be true." Rather they are deferring to legitimate experts, speaking in their area of expertise (which is not at all fallacious), and they're asking what expertise you have on this subject to consider yourself more knowledgeable than those who are actually doing the field work? That's not an appeal to authority. That you "won't bow down to experts" (when in reality you do so on plenty of other subjects every single day) is not a compelling counter-argument.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Umm...no. And continually repeating this mantra won't make it true.
                              I only repeat it because it's true.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                                Walls are pretty easy to defeat. I know of gated communities in South Africa, where the residents protect themselves from the criminal elements of society by hiding behind walls
                                8ft wall with another 6ft of razor wire and electrified fencing (with the level set to "knock out the TRex").
                                It gets defeated by ladders and thick rubber mats.....


                                (just an observation, no real suggestions for you)
                                Good point, but I imagine walking through the desert with ladders and large rubber mats isn't exactly easy, or inconspicuous.

                                Comment

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